OBD Scan Tool
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by HDDP
The car has been retrofitted with dual 3" CAI's, cats have been removed (O2 sensors inplace) I run a mixture of 91 pump gas with a % of Toluene and Xylene and a % of Klotz Coxoc. The chip was flashed with a PowerChip Gold 93.
The car seems to be running very lean with a sporadic misfire at idle. Plugs are changed after 3 events.
So, you can see why I need mapping and alteration capabilities.
The car seems to be running very lean with a sporadic misfire at idle. Plugs are changed after 3 events.
So, you can see why I need mapping and alteration capabilities.
A baseline scan of the same data will show how flow might have changed.
CAI's sometimes can create issues with MAF reporting (too much or too little airflow) which will cause a lookup error..the fuel trims will try to compensate but if there is a code preventing adaptation they won't.
Did you remove any airflow straighteners from the MAF? Do you have any stored codes? Sometimes removing the CAT causes codes (it thinks the CAT is bad) this could prevent fuel trims from adapting properly (O2 sensor ignored).
Have you dynoed the car?
The trican would be a perfect investment for you IMO. I use vag-com http://www.ross-tech.com and the tricom cables for data collection.
some examples of the fun you can have, these are baselines from my 1.8T:
Interesting note is look at the power vs AFR of these 3 pulls...big changes yet the MAF is about the same for the 3 runs....inlet temps are a bit higher though.
stockAF.jpg
stockdyno.jpg
stockcruiseAF.jpg
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by woody
Thanks Scott for the heads up on the scan tools. But like HDDP says my main reason for looking at all this was to enable the modification of the fuelling/ignition maps following any engine mod that may require it. My initial investigations with the Elm chips, which I now have working but are read only, was to establish the protocols that the car uses. The first step will be to log OBD data whilst on the road/track such as AF, ignition advance and other useful data such as actual trottle butterfly position relative to throttle pedal position. This will give a better understanding of what the car is actually doing as opposed to what we think it is doing.
Having established what protocol is being used the aim would then be to write some software to write stuff back to the various ECU's - this is fraught with potential problems I know, but nothing ventured...
Without going over old ground concerning the gains of 'chipping' a stock N/A engine, I don't see much potential for altering maps for the stock car. But for any mods that increase airflow beyond the point that the stock ECU is able to compensate for, you are going to need to look at remapping.
I know there are commercial systems available for this, your company has undoubtedly invested in such a system, but it cost about the same as my Crossfire is worth!
Cheers,
Simon.
Having established what protocol is being used the aim would then be to write some software to write stuff back to the various ECU's - this is fraught with potential problems I know, but nothing ventured...
Without going over old ground concerning the gains of 'chipping' a stock N/A engine, I don't see much potential for altering maps for the stock car. But for any mods that increase airflow beyond the point that the stock ECU is able to compensate for, you are going to need to look at remapping.
I know there are commercial systems available for this, your company has undoubtedly invested in such a system, but it cost about the same as my Crossfire is worth!
Cheers,
Simon.
1. connect between PC and ECU ("easy" part)
2. finding/reading/writing the mapped data
3. interpreting/scaling the maps
4. re-writing the maps
5. finding/correcting all of the checksums
There are various vendors who make a product for each issue, but yes the tools are not cheap.
You may have luck in finding/changing the adaptation channels although these are less useful. The is a freeware tool called "lemmiwinks" (beware you'll get some interesting south-park references if you google this) that some of the VAG guys use to tinker with stuff. Not even sure if this stuff resides in the revision of ECU used in the crossfire though.
Have you considered a piggyback setup like the SMT-6? Might do what you want (MAF scaling, timing control)
Last edited by scott@upsolute; 03-14-2006 at 04:40 PM.
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Scott: Thanks for sharing.
I did a stock dyno run a year ago before any mods were completed. The shop I used was "Sevens Only" a Spec. Miata race shop at ButtonWillow Raceway. We did three pulls with AFM ratio to get a baseline of the "off the shelf car". I have not had the chance to get back there since the mods. were done...
PS: I mis-spoke in my earlier post, I meant to say the car is running very RICH... I can see it from the blackened tips, and smell the un-burnt fuel in the exhaust.
Either way, I need to get my hands on the software/hardware that will allow us to make adjustments in the shop.
I did a stock dyno run a year ago before any mods were completed. The shop I used was "Sevens Only" a Spec. Miata race shop at ButtonWillow Raceway. We did three pulls with AFM ratio to get a baseline of the "off the shelf car". I have not had the chance to get back there since the mods. were done...
PS: I mis-spoke in my earlier post, I meant to say the car is running very RICH... I can see it from the blackened tips, and smell the un-burnt fuel in the exhaust.
Either way, I need to get my hands on the software/hardware that will allow us to make adjustments in the shop.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Sounds like there is a fuel trim issue. At idle and part-throttle, the ECU will use the O2 sensors to fine-tune fueling to stay pretty tight at stoich AFR. (~14.7:1). There is a control range of something like +/- 15%, some even as high as +/- 25%. With a scan tool you could watch O2 sensor voltage (or lambda) it should be toggling at idle or reporting lambda = 1. You can see this in my cruise data above (it is basically going slightly rich, slightly lean) if voltage is stuck high (rich) or lambda < 1 and the fuel trims have not gone (-) to correct, then this is a telltale that the ECU is not happy about something so it is ignoring the O2 sensor, you'll be running off the maps only at this point which is not really optimum.
Here is a good description of the trims (it is BMW specific but this model uses a Bosch ECU with similar operation to the Crossfire)
http://ackthud.com/shawnfogg/mixture.htm
Here is a good description of the trims (it is BMW specific but this model uses a Bosch ECU with similar operation to the Crossfire)
http://ackthud.com/shawnfogg/mixture.htm
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From: Leicester UK
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by scott@upsolute
There are a few issues you'll have to face:
1. connect between PC and ECU ("easy" part)
2. finding/reading/writing the mapped data
3. interpreting/scaling the maps
4. re-writing the maps
5. finding/correcting all of the checksums
There are various vendors who make a product for each issue, but yes the tools are not cheap.
You may have luck in finding/changing the adaptation channels although these are less useful. The is a freeware tool called "lemmiwinks" (beware you'll get some interesting south-park references if you google this) that some of the VAG guys use to tinker with stuff. Not even sure if this stuff resides in the revision of ECU used in the crossfire though.
Have you considered a piggyback setup like the SMT-6? Might do what you want (MAF scaling, timing control)
1. connect between PC and ECU ("easy" part)
2. finding/reading/writing the mapped data
3. interpreting/scaling the maps
4. re-writing the maps
5. finding/correcting all of the checksums
There are various vendors who make a product for each issue, but yes the tools are not cheap.
You may have luck in finding/changing the adaptation channels although these are less useful. The is a freeware tool called "lemmiwinks" (beware you'll get some interesting south-park references if you google this) that some of the VAG guys use to tinker with stuff. Not even sure if this stuff resides in the revision of ECU used in the crossfire though.
Have you considered a piggyback setup like the SMT-6? Might do what you want (MAF scaling, timing control)
I have been hunting around the open source scene for quite a while but
have alot of the dev tools for decompiling hex files etc so apart from the amount of time involved am not too phased by that prospect.
Yes, I have looked at piggyback systems and complete replacements like the open source Megasquirt project. I just figured that the high degree of systems integration on this vehicle may be cause problems if replaced in isolation.
How similar are the various Montronic ECU's? Obviously the maps, if not the programme code itself are all vehicle specific, but could I just get another ME2.8 (I think it is) from a more common vehicle to experiment on, as finding a cheap Crossfire or SLK ECU doesn't seem very likely.
Re. your posted graphs. Excellent! that is just the sort of think I want to log on the Crossfire and is my next step. Thanks for the link to VAG-COM but I have all the hardware/software sorted for this now (ELM/OBDlogger), I just need to get on and do it. Isn't VAG-COM exclusively for VAG vehicles as I know they use some slight variations on the ISO standard OBD spec.?
Its great to get some dialogue going on this stuff and it looks like we are finally going to start seeing hard data and figures appearing for this car; there has been plenty of talk but, dare I say, very little in the way of action.
Simon.
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From: Richmond, VA
Re: OBD Scan Tool
To monitor catalyst efficiency, the PCM expands the rich and lean switch points of the heated oxygen sensor. With extended switch points, the air/fuel mixture runs richer and leaner to overburden the catalytic converter. Once the test is started, the air/fuel mixture runs rich and lean and the O2S switches are counted. A switch is counted when an oxygen sensor signal goes from below the lean threshold to above the rich threshold. The number of Rear O2S switches is divided by the number of Front O2S switches to determine the switching ratio. The test runs for 20 seconds.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by woody
Exactly right Scott, I didn't say it would be easy.
I have been hunting around the open source scene for quite a while but
have alot of the dev tools for decompiling hex files etc so apart from the amount of time involved am not too phased by that prospect.
Yes, I have looked at piggyback systems and complete replacements like the open source Megasquirt project. I just figured that the high degree of systems integration on this vehicle may be cause problems if replaced in isolation.
How similar are the various Montronic ECU's? Obviously the maps, if not the programme code itself are all vehicle specific, but could I just get another ME2.8 (I think it is) from a more common vehicle to experiment on, as finding a cheap Crossfire or SLK ECU doesn't seem very likely.
Re. your posted graphs. Excellent! that is just the sort of think I want to log on the Crossfire and is my next step. Thanks for the link to VAG-COM but I have all the hardware/software sorted for this now (ELM/OBDlogger), I just need to get on and do it. Isn't VAG-COM exclusively for VAG vehicles as I know they use some slight variations on the ISO standard OBD spec.?
Its great to get some dialogue going on this stuff and it looks like we are finally going to start seeing hard data and figures appearing for this car; there has been plenty of talk but, dare I say, very little in the way of action.
Simon.
I have been hunting around the open source scene for quite a while but
have alot of the dev tools for decompiling hex files etc so apart from the amount of time involved am not too phased by that prospect.
Yes, I have looked at piggyback systems and complete replacements like the open source Megasquirt project. I just figured that the high degree of systems integration on this vehicle may be cause problems if replaced in isolation.
How similar are the various Montronic ECU's? Obviously the maps, if not the programme code itself are all vehicle specific, but could I just get another ME2.8 (I think it is) from a more common vehicle to experiment on, as finding a cheap Crossfire or SLK ECU doesn't seem very likely.
Re. your posted graphs. Excellent! that is just the sort of think I want to log on the Crossfire and is my next step. Thanks for the link to VAG-COM but I have all the hardware/software sorted for this now (ELM/OBDlogger), I just need to get on and do it. Isn't VAG-COM exclusively for VAG vehicles as I know they use some slight variations on the ISO standard OBD spec.?
Its great to get some dialogue going on this stuff and it looks like we are finally going to start seeing hard data and figures appearing for this car; there has been plenty of talk but, dare I say, very little in the way of action.
Simon.
With piggybacks you retain the stock ECU, even full-out replacements still require the stock ECU for other functions. Have look at the SMT-6 from perfect-power.
VAGCOM is VW/Audi specific, it goes beyond the basic OBD-2 required parameters and gives access to hundreds of sensors, values, etc., plus allows recoding of some items depending on the car...kinda like the "star" system MB has. The producers are working on a BMW-specific tool that will give advanced range of functions, no idea when that will arrive. Access to things like fueling are not allowed, the way they are stored in memory is not directly accessible.
I'd be very interested to see some logged data from your car. If someone is local to me we could try to make a few graphs as well.
The scan tools are well worth the couple hundred $$ for the data they can give you.
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by bobs
All, There is some really good info on what the PCM does and why it does it in the Onboard Diagnostics section of the service manual. Check page 25-37. Actually, the section on Monitored Systems is pretty good as well. That's on page 25-2. Here's something neat that i found...
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Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by woody
How similar are the various Montronic ECU's? Obviously the maps, if not the programme code itself are all vehicle specific, but could I just get another ME2.8 (I think it is) from a more common vehicle to experiment on, as finding a cheap Crossfire or SLK ECU doesn't seem very likely.
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From: Leicester UK
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by SRT6_Roadster
Even if you found a wrecked Crossfire just like yours and picked the ECU up cheap you could not just plug it into the car. The ECU's are vin coded.
Simon.
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From: Leicester UK
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by scott@upsolute
The ECU's have different code, checksum location, map location, and also physical differences. The processors inside can vary as well...although most are the same for a given ME-level. A ECU for this car is probably $350-$500 if you hunt around...the dealer will probably want $700-$900.
With piggybacks you retain the stock ECU, even full-out replacements still require the stock ECU for other functions. Have look at the SMT-6 from perfect-power.
VAGCOM is VW/Audi specific, it goes beyond the basic OBD-2 required parameters and gives access to hundreds of sensors, values, etc., plus allows recoding of some items depending on the car...kinda like the "star" system MB has. The producers are working on a BMW-specific tool that will give advanced range of functions, no idea when that will arrive. Access to things like fueling are not allowed, the way they are stored in memory is not directly accessible.
I'd be very interested to see some logged data from your car. If someone is local to me we could try to make a few graphs as well.
The scan tools are well worth the couple hundred $$ for the data they can give you.
With piggybacks you retain the stock ECU, even full-out replacements still require the stock ECU for other functions. Have look at the SMT-6 from perfect-power.
VAGCOM is VW/Audi specific, it goes beyond the basic OBD-2 required parameters and gives access to hundreds of sensors, values, etc., plus allows recoding of some items depending on the car...kinda like the "star" system MB has. The producers are working on a BMW-specific tool that will give advanced range of functions, no idea when that will arrive. Access to things like fueling are not allowed, the way they are stored in memory is not directly accessible.
I'd be very interested to see some logged data from your car. If someone is local to me we could try to make a few graphs as well.
The scan tools are well worth the couple hundred $$ for the data they can give you.
Yes, I did think that Vag Com was VAG specific and that VAG cars do make it slightly trickier to access the extended PID's. I assume you originally made the reference to it since you have a Passat yourself (assumed form the graphs you posted). However our cars aren't VAG so I don't see how VAG Com would be relevant in this case?
Yeah, spending a couple of hundred on scanning tools is not really a problem, although I have a homebrew setup that seems to work OK. I might run into problems with the extended DCX PID's, - we'll see.
As soon as I get some data logged I will post it here. I am quite busy with my 'real' job at the moment so need to find the time to fit it in. (I am away at the moment but just found time to log in on a client's PC!)
Cheers,
Simon.
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by scott@upsolute
yes exactly, that's why taking off the CATs can cause issues...you gain some flow but maybe "annoy" the ECU...
Your information is terrific. Perhaps you have, or know of a system that is already on the market that works with the Crossfire. Read, Write, Modify ?
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by HDDP
Scott: Perhaps you don't realize my car is track use only, thus the removed cats etc. Short of having MOTEC develop a system for the car, which they don't have time and I don't have the 10K plus $, I need to be able to adjust the parameters of the system.
Your information is terrific. Perhaps you have, or know of a system that is already on the market that works with the Crossfire. Read, Write, Modify ?
Your information is terrific. Perhaps you have, or know of a system that is already on the market that works with the Crossfire. Read, Write, Modify ?
Of the tools I know of (which are only available to chip tuners) the costs are right up there with the MOTEC if not more and they typically still don't tell you where the maps are or how to scale the parameters.
In your case I'd try to collect some data and figure out where the car isn't running right and see if there is anything you can do to make it run better.
(ie fuel trims not working, knock causing enrichment, temps too high on the track, MAF out of mapped range, etc. etc.) Perhaps Powerchip can do a re-map based on your setup?
Otherwise for a lower-cost approach maybe look in to a piggyback like the SMT-6 from http://www.perfectpower.com or see if one of the air-fuel-timing calibrators from Split-second might do the trick http://www.splitsec.com
These work by altering MAF and crank signals although you have to stay within the limits of the stock ECU mapping. Your mods are not that extreme relatively speaking so it might work for you.
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by woody
Thanks again for clarifying that Scott. If I can get an ECU for around $300 USD that's not bad when converted to GBP! I'll keep looking. I really just wanted to get hold of something with the same architecture as the Crossfire ECU so that I can see how all the I/O is mapped.
Yes, I did think that Vag Com was VAG specific and that VAG cars do make it slightly trickier to access the extended PID's. I assume you originally made the reference to it since you have a Passat yourself (assumed form the graphs you posted). However our cars aren't VAG so I don't see how VAG Com would be relevant in this case?
Yeah, spending a couple of hundred on scanning tools is not really a problem, although I have a homebrew setup that seems to work OK. I might run into problems with the extended DCX PID's, - we'll see.
As soon as I get some data logged I will post it here. I am quite busy with my 'real' job at the moment so need to find the time to fit it in. (I am away at the moment but just found time to log in on a client's PC!)
Cheers,
Simon.
Yes, I did think that Vag Com was VAG specific and that VAG cars do make it slightly trickier to access the extended PID's. I assume you originally made the reference to it since you have a Passat yourself (assumed form the graphs you posted). However our cars aren't VAG so I don't see how VAG Com would be relevant in this case?
Yeah, spending a couple of hundred on scanning tools is not really a problem, although I have a homebrew setup that seems to work OK. I might run into problems with the extended DCX PID's, - we'll see.
As soon as I get some data logged I will post it here. I am quite busy with my 'real' job at the moment so need to find the time to fit it in. (I am away at the moment but just found time to log in on a client's PC!)
Cheers,
Simon.
http://www.car-part.com starting at $100 USD.
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by scott@upsolute
Yeah, after watching the California police training video I figured you must be off-road-only.
Of the tools I know of (which are only available to chip tuners) the costs are right up there with the MOTEC if not more and they typically still don't tell you where the maps are or how to scale the parameters.
In your case I'd try to collect some data and figure out where the car isn't running right and see if there is anything you can do to make it run better.
(ie fuel trims not working, knock causing enrichment, temps too high on the track, MAF out of mapped range, etc. etc.) Perhaps Powerchip can do a re-map based on your setup?
Otherwise for a lower-cost approach maybe look in to a piggyback like the SMT-6 from http://www.perfectpower.com or see if one of the air-fuel-timing calibrators from Split-second might do the trick http://www.splitsec.com
These work by altering MAF and crank signals although you have to stay within the limits of the stock ECU mapping. Your mods are not that extreme relatively speaking so it might work for you.
Of the tools I know of (which are only available to chip tuners) the costs are right up there with the MOTEC if not more and they typically still don't tell you where the maps are or how to scale the parameters.
In your case I'd try to collect some data and figure out where the car isn't running right and see if there is anything you can do to make it run better.
(ie fuel trims not working, knock causing enrichment, temps too high on the track, MAF out of mapped range, etc. etc.) Perhaps Powerchip can do a re-map based on your setup?
Otherwise for a lower-cost approach maybe look in to a piggyback like the SMT-6 from http://www.perfectpower.com or see if one of the air-fuel-timing calibrators from Split-second might do the trick http://www.splitsec.com
These work by altering MAF and crank signals although you have to stay within the limits of the stock ECU mapping. Your mods are not that extreme relatively speaking so it might work for you.
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From: Leicester UK
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by scott@upsolute
http://www.ecudirect.com/index.asp for $309.95 + $75 core.
http://www.car-part.com starting at $100 USD.
http://www.car-part.com starting at $100 USD.
Simon.
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534
Re: OBD Scan Tool
Originally Posted by HDDP
Scott: It sounds like you're pretty HIP to the CHIP... Too bad you're not in CA, I would drop the car off to you. It would be useless to just send the ECU. Perhaps you can recommend someone in the LA area that has your level of expertise and a dyno at the shop. PowerChip is IMO useless, they just preloaded and ran...
UPsolute does offer some custom tuning if you have a dyno plot with AFR, taken with your latest mods.
But you may not need this...One thing you might try (in addition to logging some basic data) is to fake out the rear sensor a bit, have look at this link:
http://www.ephatch.com/resource/simthing/simthing.htm
Seems to work ok, I've seen this method on several car boards. Of course assuming you actually have an issue from the test pipe.
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From: Leicester UK
Re: OBD Scan Tool
I have just spent a couple of hours doing some testing with my OBD setup and managed to get some data logged and graphed. This was just a trial run logging data from a short drive around the block and the data is pretty meaningless, but I just wanted to test the logging system out. I was also only logging at 10 second intervals due to the limitations of the software I was using. There is plenty of useful data available such as Load, IAT. MAF, TP, ignition advance, O2 sensors, fuel trim etc. so now that I know that the system is basically functional I will look at doing some proper tests.
Anyway here's the graph of the data.
Anyway here's the graph of the data.
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From: Northbridge, MA 01534