Check Engine Light
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Check Engine Light
It is fuse 4, the ONLY 40 amp fuse on the Relay Control Board - if you yank the fuse, the pump won't run. Period. Now it WILL generate a new code for the secondary air injection system (P0401 or P0410, I can't remember which - just ignore it. Not having secondary air does nothing but leave the CATs cool longer at startup and generate that code.)
If that clears the issue, we can go from there - it could be a stuck relay on the RCM or some other issue causing the relay to pull in when is should not...
Take the cover off the big box next to the battery, the RCM is the module closest to the center line of the car - lift it up and find the 40amp fuse and yank it out. Set the module back down in there and put the cover back on and see what you get.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Re: Check Engine Light
First of all, you can yank the fuse for the secondary air injection system and disable that damn pump! (The one Max is talking about.)
It is fuse 4, the ONLY 40 amp fuse on the Relay Control Board - if you yank the fuse, the pump won't run. Period. Now it WILL generate a new code for the secondary air injection system (P0401 or P0410, I can't remember which - just ignore it. Not having secondary air does nothing but leave the CATs cool longer at startup and generate that code.)
If that clears the issue, we can go from there - it could be a stuck relay on the RCM or some other issue causing the relay to pull in when is should not...
Take the cover off the big box next to the battery, the RCM is the module closest to the center line of the car - lift it up and find the 40amp fuse and yank it out. Set the module back down in there and put the cover back on and see what you get.
It is fuse 4, the ONLY 40 amp fuse on the Relay Control Board - if you yank the fuse, the pump won't run. Period. Now it WILL generate a new code for the secondary air injection system (P0401 or P0410, I can't remember which - just ignore it. Not having secondary air does nothing but leave the CATs cool longer at startup and generate that code.)
If that clears the issue, we can go from there - it could be a stuck relay on the RCM or some other issue causing the relay to pull in when is should not...
Take the cover off the big box next to the battery, the RCM is the module closest to the center line of the car - lift it up and find the 40amp fuse and yank it out. Set the module back down in there and put the cover back on and see what you get.
Thanks again
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,591
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From: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Check Engine Light
I don't bother clearing codes. They go away after you fix the issue, within a few drive cycles.
I had an EGR disable switch in my last Crossfire, disabling the EGR would throw a code - but re-enabling it and driving it a day or two would turn off the CEL and the code would be gone.
(At least I BELIEVE all codes will clear on their own... that has been the case for me.) Try this, and see if the condition goes away.
I had an EGR disable switch in my last Crossfire, disabling the EGR would throw a code - but re-enabling it and driving it a day or two would turn off the CEL and the code would be gone.
(At least I BELIEVE all codes will clear on their own... that has been the case for me.) Try this, and see if the condition goes away.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 85
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Re: Check Engine Light
I don't bother clearing codes. They go away after you fix the issue, within a few drive cycles.
I had an EGR disable switch in my last Crossfire, disabling the EGR would throw a code - but re-enabling it and driving it a day or two would turn off the CEL and the code would be gone.
(At least I BELIEVE all codes will clear on their own... that has been the case for me.) Try this, and see if the condition goes away.
I had an EGR disable switch in my last Crossfire, disabling the EGR would throw a code - but re-enabling it and driving it a day or two would turn off the CEL and the code would be gone.
(At least I BELIEVE all codes will clear on their own... that has been the case for me.) Try this, and see if the condition goes away.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Re: Check Engine Light
Thank you pizza guy for your help! I have been battleing this issue since last November!
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Joined: Jul 2015
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Check Engine Light
A weird ground issue may also explain the other sensor going weird. But as you mentioned Bluetooth OBD2 isn't perfect either.
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Re: Check Engine Light
At time 377.2, notice how both bank 1 O2 sensors go to 0V, you might have a ground issue, or a short to ground issue. Just a guess, but I have seen an engine harness rub through and cause issues only under full access when it rubbed a certain way, but looked fine under the hood parked.
A weird ground issue may also explain the other sensor going weird. But as you mentioned Bluetooth OBD2 isn't perfect either.
A weird ground issue may also explain the other sensor going weird. But as you mentioned Bluetooth OBD2 isn't perfect either.
when I opened the fuse box it looked like a rats nest.. I guess the dealer was looking over each wire for the short or maybe a loose ground.
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Check Engine Light
At time 377.2, notice how both bank 1 O2 sensors go to 0V, you might have a ground issue, or a short to ground issue. Just a guess, but I have seen an engine harness rub through and cause issues only under full access when it rubbed a certain way, but looked fine under the hood parked.
A weird ground issue may also explain the other sensor going weird. But as you mentioned Bluetooth OBD2 isn't perfect either.
A weird ground issue may also explain the other sensor going weird. But as you mentioned Bluetooth OBD2 isn't perfect either.
Go look at the diagram in the service manual. Then read this:
How Does The Oxygen Sensor Work? - Technical Information - NGK Spark Plugs Australia
With one kind of sensor (Zirconia) , an open ground will cause the PTCM to see zero volts because such sensors develop their own voltage.
But a Titania sensor is biased by the PTCM, so an open ground THEN would cause the PTCM to see 5 volts, not 0 volts.
Without knowing which type we have.... I'm lost here. All you can do it inspect wiring to see if, indeed, you have an open ground. With BOTH doing the same thing at the same time, it sounds like we have Zirconia sensors and that the ground connection is opening up. That is the only way I can see BOTH showing 0 volts at the same time.
Of course, my other idea is that the PTCM is just plain bad or confused - but I don't see a bad PTCM also capable of making the car "run like new"...
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Re: Check Engine Light
Interesting read, thank you for sharing but, I really have no idea which sensors they put in the car after the repair. I could ask them but, not sure if they will tell me.. I decided to again review the data from my travels on Sunday. Let me know if any of this seems in the proper range.
Bank 1 - Sensor 1 - Voltage consisted of values between: 0 - 0.908
Bank 1 - Sensor 1 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: -7.6 - 23.8
Bank 1 - Sensor 2 - Voltage consisted of values between: 0 - 0.877
Bank 1 - Sensor 2 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: -62.9 - 99.2
Bank 2 - Sensor 1 - Voltage consisted of values between 0 - 1.242
Bank 2 - Sensor 1 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: -79.7 - 21.7
Bank 2 - Sensor 2 - Voltage consisted of values between 0 - 0.923
Bank 2 - Sensor 2 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: 39.8-99.2
I uploaded two more reports, one is the "mode 6 report" (I do not understand this report at all!) and the "scan report" from after the MIL went out. Also, I uploaded the full excel spreadsheet in PDF (I can't upload in .xls format) with all data from my drive. I color coded the "Time(s)" column to delineate each time I started and stop and color coded the two banks of oxygen sensors.
Do you know where to look for loose grounds is there a specific area I should look?
Bank 1 - Sensor 1 - Voltage consisted of values between: 0 - 0.908
Bank 1 - Sensor 1 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: -7.6 - 23.8
Bank 1 - Sensor 2 - Voltage consisted of values between: 0 - 0.877
Bank 1 - Sensor 2 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: -62.9 - 99.2
Bank 2 - Sensor 1 - Voltage consisted of values between 0 - 1.242
Bank 2 - Sensor 1 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: -79.7 - 21.7
Bank 2 - Sensor 2 - Voltage consisted of values between 0 - 0.923
Bank 2 - Sensor 2 - Short Term Fuel Trim values ranged: 39.8-99.2
I uploaded two more reports, one is the "mode 6 report" (I do not understand this report at all!) and the "scan report" from after the MIL went out. Also, I uploaded the full excel spreadsheet in PDF (I can't upload in .xls format) with all data from my drive. I color coded the "Time(s)" column to delineate each time I started and stop and color coded the two banks of oxygen sensors.
Do you know where to look for loose grounds is there a specific area I should look?
Last edited by jgreen; 09-15-2015 at 01:30 AM. Reason: Uploaded PDF - When the O2 sensors registered "0"
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Joined: Sep 2007
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Re: Check Engine Light
Ok, this is hard to make sense of.
Go look at the diagram in the service manual. Then read this:
How Does The Oxygen Sensor Work? - Technical Information - NGK Spark Plugs Australia
With one kind of sensor (Zirconia) , an open ground will cause the PTCM to see zero volts because such sensors develop their own voltage.
But a Titania sensor is biased by the PTCM, so an open ground THEN would cause the PTCM to see 5 volts, not 0 volts.
Without knowing which type we have.... I'm lost here. All you can do it inspect wiring to see if, indeed, you have an open ground. With BOTH doing the same thing at the same time, it sounds like we have Zirconia sensors and that the ground connection is opening up. That is the only way I can see BOTH showing 0 volts at the same time.
Of course, my other idea is that the PTCM is just plain bad or confused - but I don't see a bad PTCM also capable of making the car "run like new"...
Go look at the diagram in the service manual. Then read this:
How Does The Oxygen Sensor Work? - Technical Information - NGK Spark Plugs Australia
With one kind of sensor (Zirconia) , an open ground will cause the PTCM to see zero volts because such sensors develop their own voltage.
But a Titania sensor is biased by the PTCM, so an open ground THEN would cause the PTCM to see 5 volts, not 0 volts.
Without knowing which type we have.... I'm lost here. All you can do it inspect wiring to see if, indeed, you have an open ground. With BOTH doing the same thing at the same time, it sounds like we have Zirconia sensors and that the ground connection is opening up. That is the only way I can see BOTH showing 0 volts at the same time.
Of course, my other idea is that the PTCM is just plain bad or confused - but I don't see a bad PTCM also capable of making the car "run like new"...
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Re: Check Engine Light
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Posts: 8,015
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From: MOFN, AL, 70 miles from George
Thread Starter
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Thread Starter
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Re: Check Engine Light
Once I removed the 40amp fuse on Sunday and drove around starting and stopping 4 times the light is now off. The new pending code is the P0410 -AIR System.
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Check Engine Light
Just to recap.. The engine light was on before any of the orginal O2 sensors were replaced. When the dealer started to troubleshooting they started with the O2 sensors replaced all of them and one sensor they replaced twice, the PCM (or BCM) replaced twice, then the cats, and a pcv valve.
Once I removed the 40amp fuse on Sunday and drove around starting and stopping 4 times the light is now off. The new pending code is the P0410 -AIR System.
Once I removed the 40amp fuse on Sunday and drove around starting and stopping 4 times the light is now off. The new pending code is the P0410 -AIR System.
Re: Check Engine Light