Need some sage advice... what to do?
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From: Orlando
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
First I connect a dongle ($12) and use Torque ($5) on my phone to check for reported faults. If you were reading misfires, you were doing something similar. I would have expected an erratic idle to set a count since it is reading rpm deltas but may wait for closed loop before starting.
Have to keep in mind that the elecronics in these cars are really pre-milennia and in the infancy of OBD-II. When I see something like this I run a fuel pressure check to see if in spec. If OK and the tank is under 1/4 full I check for water in the gas (both can be done at the fuel rail). Note: since they started putting ethanol in the gas, I rarely see water any more. We used to "winterize" gas by adding "gasoline anti freeze" - ethanol - to the tank).
Next I start looking at secondary ignition (ICM, coils, wires, plugs since neither fuel pressure nor water nor secondary ignition will normally set a code in early OBD cars.
Where to go from there depends on what you find. YMMV.
Have to keep in mind that the elecronics in these cars are really pre-milennia and in the infancy of OBD-II. When I see something like this I run a fuel pressure check to see if in spec. If OK and the tank is under 1/4 full I check for water in the gas (both can be done at the fuel rail). Note: since they started putting ethanol in the gas, I rarely see water any more. We used to "winterize" gas by adding "gasoline anti freeze" - ethanol - to the tank).
Next I start looking at secondary ignition (ICM, coils, wires, plugs since neither fuel pressure nor water nor secondary ignition will normally set a code in early OBD cars.
Where to go from there depends on what you find. YMMV.
Last edited by Padgett; 07-04-2014 at 10:59 AM.
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
First I connect a dongle ($12) and use Torque ($5) on my phone to check for reported faults. If you were reading misfires, you were doing something similar. I would have expected an erratic idle to set a count since it is reading rpm deltas but may wait for closed loop before starting.
Have to keep in mind that the elecronics in these cars are really pre-milennia and in the infancy of OBD-II. When I see something like this I run a fuel pressure check to see if in spec. If OK and the tank is under 1/4 full I check for water in the gas (both can be done at the fuel rail). Note: since they started putting ethanol in the gas, I rarely see water any more. We used to "winterize" gas by adding "gasoline anti freeze" - ethanol - to the tank).
Next I start looking at secondary ignition (ICM, coils, wires, plugs since neither fuel pressure nor water nor secondary ignition will normally set a code in early OBD cars.
Where to go from there depends on what you find. YMMV.
Have to keep in mind that the elecronics in these cars are really pre-milennia and in the infancy of OBD-II. When I see something like this I run a fuel pressure check to see if in spec. If OK and the tank is under 1/4 full I check for water in the gas (both can be done at the fuel rail). Note: since they started putting ethanol in the gas, I rarely see water any more. We used to "winterize" gas by adding "gasoline anti freeze" - ethanol - to the tank).
Next I start looking at secondary ignition (ICM, coils, wires, plugs since neither fuel pressure nor water nor secondary ignition will normally set a code in early OBD cars.
Where to go from there depends on what you find. YMMV.
At this point, I'm just happy to learn that it appears to be something completely unrelated to the problem that I paid to have fixed. Now that it's in the hands of Mercedes, I really can't offer much in the way of helping him find cheap parts because they will likely want to provide them. Hoping it's something simple like an unplugged connector or vacuum line.
At the end of the day, I appreciate Bruce's friendship and I want to do everything I can to keep it intact. That's why I made the trip up there last night... I never want my integrity to be called into question.
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Monday update:
Apparently Mercedes' finest are stumped as well -- ZERO codes.
So, now we're all befuddled.
I guess the next order of business is to have Eric @ Mercedes call Buckhead and let the professionals chat it out... I'm out of ideas/suggestions.
Apparently Mercedes' finest are stumped as well -- ZERO codes.
So, now we're all befuddled.
I guess the next order of business is to have Eric @ Mercedes call Buckhead and let the professionals chat it out... I'm out of ideas/suggestions.
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Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Your a great guy and definitely deserve a pat of the back -- that's a class act you are doing -- willing to help out the new owner.
************
************
Wanted to give you all an update on the situation...
So tonight, I drove up to the airport to meet him. Wheels touched down at 6:20, and by 6:30 we were looking at the car.
The good news: It does NOT appear to be related to my other issue that was fixed by Buckhead.
The bad news: We still don't have a clue what the problem is
I got a clearer story tonight as to what happened at the moment of failure... he said he had made it into the parking area just fine; it was only the last 15 feet (literally in front of the parking spot) that the failure occurred.
Failure "felt" the same as my old misfire problem. But here's the kicker -- no CEL.
I plugged in the DashDaq and tried to pull codes... nothing. 0 pending MILs, 0 DTCs.
Tried to start the car, and it cranks and fires right up -- and settles right into a ~450 RPM idle (lumpy). If you give it, say, 10% throttle... the idle smooths out and you can maintain 1,000 RPM and it will be fairly smooth. Give it ~25% throttle, and it falls on its face. Literally won't go above that RPM.
Engine was cold, hadn't been run in nearly a week so we know it's not a heat issue. Something broke -- a sensor, throttle body maybe? But it won't idle and won't take anything more than 25% throttle.
Conclusion is that he called AAA and had them come to pick him up. He is going to have the car dropped off at Mercedes of Nashville (he knows the lead SA) and hopefully they can plug Star-DAS into it and see what's what.
Still bummed for him... I hate that he only got 110 miles of enjoyment out of it before it gave him an issue. You simply never know.
So, I plan to stay in touch and "guide" him to the right fix (and cheaper parts).
Not going to abandon him and simply say "good luck". Not how I operate.
Cheers,
So tonight, I drove up to the airport to meet him. Wheels touched down at 6:20, and by 6:30 we were looking at the car.
The good news: It does NOT appear to be related to my other issue that was fixed by Buckhead.
The bad news: We still don't have a clue what the problem is
I got a clearer story tonight as to what happened at the moment of failure... he said he had made it into the parking area just fine; it was only the last 15 feet (literally in front of the parking spot) that the failure occurred.
Failure "felt" the same as my old misfire problem. But here's the kicker -- no CEL.
I plugged in the DashDaq and tried to pull codes... nothing. 0 pending MILs, 0 DTCs.
Tried to start the car, and it cranks and fires right up -- and settles right into a ~450 RPM idle (lumpy). If you give it, say, 10% throttle... the idle smooths out and you can maintain 1,000 RPM and it will be fairly smooth. Give it ~25% throttle, and it falls on its face. Literally won't go above that RPM.
Engine was cold, hadn't been run in nearly a week so we know it's not a heat issue. Something broke -- a sensor, throttle body maybe? But it won't idle and won't take anything more than 25% throttle.
Conclusion is that he called AAA and had them come to pick him up. He is going to have the car dropped off at Mercedes of Nashville (he knows the lead SA) and hopefully they can plug Star-DAS into it and see what's what.
Still bummed for him... I hate that he only got 110 miles of enjoyment out of it before it gave him an issue. You simply never know.
So, I plan to stay in touch and "guide" him to the right fix (and cheaper parts).
Not going to abandon him and simply say "good luck". Not how I operate.
Cheers,
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
I spoke with the Mercedes tech earlier, he said he thought the car was running entirely too rich. I told him that shouldn't be an issue at all, since the AFR's (in open loop) are 12.5-11.9.... and while the car is simply driving around, the ECU seeks stoich (14.7).
I'm still standing by the suggestion that a sensor (TPS, CPS, etc) had a sudden immediate failure. The car was running great, then had an immediate, sudden misfire that has not gone away since the failure occurred. So, it's not a heat-sensitive issue. MB tech says fuel, but until he shows me a black spark plug, I'm not buying it.
I put him in contact with Buckhead, so hoping they can work together to glean the needed expertise.
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Hey John, sorry it took me so long to find time to look at this thread.
First of all, you're a great guy doing the right thing. This is exactly what I'm working at and will do when I sell. A nice clean perfect as possible car and assistance so that they don't break the bank everytime they need something diagnosed.
As far as the issue, I'm wondering why the tech said that they couldn't pull any codes... That literally makes no sense because the first thing to pull on DAS if there's no CEL is the "Full list of Fault Codes and Events" on the home screen of the ME. It pulls up every single code that has ever been thrown on the car including stored codes that may clear themselves after the problem goes away.
It's hard to say why it would happen and then go away, but Buckhead at this point knows the car. I put my money on them being able to come up with something. Tuning is crazy from what I'm trying to learn on MB's and there is always a possibility that they changed the wrong value on coding somewhere. Happens all the time.
First of all, you're a great guy doing the right thing. This is exactly what I'm working at and will do when I sell. A nice clean perfect as possible car and assistance so that they don't break the bank everytime they need something diagnosed.
As far as the issue, I'm wondering why the tech said that they couldn't pull any codes... That literally makes no sense because the first thing to pull on DAS if there's no CEL is the "Full list of Fault Codes and Events" on the home screen of the ME. It pulls up every single code that has ever been thrown on the car including stored codes that may clear themselves after the problem goes away.
It's hard to say why it would happen and then go away, but Buckhead at this point knows the car. I put my money on them being able to come up with something. Tuning is crazy from what I'm trying to learn on MB's and there is always a possibility that they changed the wrong value on coding somewhere. Happens all the time.
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Hey John, sorry it took me so long to find time to look at this thread.
First of all, you're a great guy doing the right thing. This is exactly what I'm working at and will do when I sell. A nice clean perfect as possible car and assistance so that they don't break the bank everytime they need something diagnosed.
As far as the issue, I'm wondering why the tech said that they couldn't pull any codes... That literally makes no sense because the first thing to pull on DAS if there's no CEL is the "Full list of Fault Codes and Events" on the home screen of the ME. It pulls up every single code that has ever been thrown on the car including stored codes that may clear themselves after the problem goes away.
It's hard to say why it would happen and then go away, but Buckhead at this point knows the car. I put my money on them being able to come up with something. Tuning is crazy from what I'm trying to learn on MB's and there is always a possibility that they changed the wrong value on coding somewhere. Happens all the time.
First of all, you're a great guy doing the right thing. This is exactly what I'm working at and will do when I sell. A nice clean perfect as possible car and assistance so that they don't break the bank everytime they need something diagnosed.
As far as the issue, I'm wondering why the tech said that they couldn't pull any codes... That literally makes no sense because the first thing to pull on DAS if there's no CEL is the "Full list of Fault Codes and Events" on the home screen of the ME. It pulls up every single code that has ever been thrown on the car including stored codes that may clear themselves after the problem goes away.
It's hard to say why it would happen and then go away, but Buckhead at this point knows the car. I put my money on them being able to come up with something. Tuning is crazy from what I'm trying to learn on MB's and there is always a possibility that they changed the wrong value on coding somewhere. Happens all the time.
What has me really stumped is how PERFECT the car ran for the three weeks in between the Buckhead visit and the failure. Tunes don't just "go bad"... if they work, they work.
Agreed that it's... unusual... that MB couldn't pull codes. If nothing else, they should have enough basic mechanical knowledge to be able to diagnose w/o needing Star-DAS to hold their hand every step of the way.
I mean, my car only has three mods on it -- a CAI, a pulley, and a 255lph fuel pump.
Everything else is factory.
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From: IN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Has anyone just tried the obvious and replaced the CPS? Remember when Oledoc suggested your injectors were over heating and you said you had never heard of that before? Sometimes the obvious is what it really is..... it is a cheap and quick thing to rule out, and it does have the symptoms. And you just stated on here that a an MB person told you there were recalls on CPS sensors.... But, I may be all wrong... I have had an AIT sensor come loose and cause all kinds of missing rough idle problems as well.... The boost will sometimes break the tab, and push it out enough to leak....
Last edited by oledoc2u; 07-08-2014 at 11:34 AM.
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Has anyone just tried the obvious and replaced the CPS? Remember when Oledoc suggested your injectors were over heating and you said you had never heard of that before? Sometimes the obvious is what it really is..... it is a cheap and quick thing to rule out, and it does have the symptoms. And you just stated on here that a an MB person told you there were recalls on CPS sensors.... But, I may be all wrong...
And yes, you were 100% right. Injectors WERE overheating, and I had never ever heard of such a thing prior to this. My thoughts were, fuel is flowing through them... HTF are they getting too hot?!? Hahaha
You win two internets, sir.
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
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From: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Thanks Josh.
What has me really stumped is how PERFECT the car ran for the three weeks in between the Buckhead visit and the failure. Tunes don't just "go bad"... if they work, they work.
Agreed that it's... unusual... that MB couldn't pull codes. If nothing else, they should have enough basic mechanical knowledge to be able to diagnose w/o needing Star-DAS to hold their hand every step of the way.
I mean, my car only has three mods on it -- a CAI, a pulley, and a 255lph fuel pump.
Everything else is factory.
What has me really stumped is how PERFECT the car ran for the three weeks in between the Buckhead visit and the failure. Tunes don't just "go bad"... if they work, they work.
Agreed that it's... unusual... that MB couldn't pull codes. If nothing else, they should have enough basic mechanical knowledge to be able to diagnose w/o needing Star-DAS to hold their hand every step of the way.
I mean, my car only has three mods on it -- a CAI, a pulley, and a 255lph fuel pump.
Everything else is factory.
That is unusual for sure. Is there a possibility of a bad fuel filter?
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
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Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
Sorry I can't be much of help here. I hope they will figure it out and I'm extremely happy to see people on this forum get together and help each other out! This is why this place is great and a joy to read!
As for my question - I keep hearing about the TORQUE smartphone app. What except for check engine error codes (and probably other diagnostics codes like airbag, alarm etc,) can this tool do? And where to get the plug needed as a connector? How much does that run?
As for my question - I keep hearing about the TORQUE smartphone app. What except for check engine error codes (and probably other diagnostics codes like airbag, alarm etc,) can this tool do? And where to get the plug needed as a connector? How much does that run?
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From: Ontario
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
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From: murfreesboro,tn
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
john you have to remember its unlikely theres a single "mechanic" at the benz dealership. theres a garage full of "techs" but if the computer doesn't tell them what to do they are lost. add to the equation the embarrassment of having to work on a chrysler in full view of all his peers and i bet he barely plugged the star das in before giving up all hope. send it to jason in atl and let actual mechanics work on the car
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From: Murfreesboro, TN
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
john you have to remember its unlikely theres a single "mechanic" at the benz dealership. theres a garage full of "techs" but if the computer doesn't tell them what to do they are lost. add to the equation the embarrassment of having to work on a chrysler in full view of all his peers and i bet he barely plugged the star das in before giving up all hope. send it to jason in atl and let actual mechanics work on the car
I've recommended Buckhead a dozen times but the new owner seems resistant to sending it that far away... Which is interesting, because before the sale he mentioned going to ATL all the time.
It's Wednesday and I haven't heard anything from MB or my buyer, so maybe they fixed it... who knows.
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From: Orlando
Re: Need some sage advice... what to do?
OK fols, there hane been several threads in the past on Torque Pro & the TorqueScan plugin (both available from the Play Store) and OBD-II dongles (I have a Mini to maximise knee room likethis ).
Use the TorqueScan plugin to find what parameters the XF supports. (Note it does identify itself as a Chrysler and not a MB) then add to the RealTimedisplay.
You can try using the enclosed torquedial.dat file I use on my phone's 3.5" display. With a 8" tablet I can put all on the same page.
Note: I had to rename torquedial.dat to torquedial.txt to add as an attachment. Change back to .dat and copy into the .torque directory (may need to enable hidden files to see the directory).
I check for fault codes & run the full test sequence occasionally to see what is happening but usually run in realtime mode.
ps can run it and play music or run the sat-nav at the same time but shut down completely when not in car to keep it from draining power.
Use the TorqueScan plugin to find what parameters the XF supports. (Note it does identify itself as a Chrysler and not a MB) then add to the RealTimedisplay.
You can try using the enclosed torquedial.dat file I use on my phone's 3.5" display. With a 8" tablet I can put all on the same page.
Note: I had to rename torquedial.dat to torquedial.txt to add as an attachment. Change back to .dat and copy into the .torque directory (may need to enable hidden files to see the directory).
I check for fault codes & run the full test sequence occasionally to see what is happening but usually run in realtime mode.
ps can run it and play music or run the sat-nav at the same time but shut down completely when not in car to keep it from draining power.