Pulley Saver Kit
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Re: Pulley Saver Kit
I didn't realize I had as much until I looked at my belt and pulleys, noticed all the black soot and thought I would just install a wrap kit for insurance. my car came to life a second time, but note I also went from Single CAI to Dual. My car now pulls harder and steadily from a dig.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 25,429
Likes: 613
From: Ontario
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
“Pulley Saver”
The next chapter in a Waldig/NeedsWings Design.
After reviewing some of the prior issues Crossfire owners have had with their idler pulley failures, we started to consider the possibilities of an improved design. The real weakness in the design is the idler under the supercharger as it is often the smallest at 60 MM in diameter. With a stock crankshaft pulley of 155MM, the idler is running about 2.6 times faster or 15,500 rpm at our 6000 rpm redline.
The idler pulley is reduced in diameter to allow the stock belt to be used with the 178, 181, and the 185 pulley upgrades. The water pump pulley is also reduced in diameter to ‘free up‘ some additional belt length. This water pump pulley must be smaller in diameter to allow the larger pulley to be installed and does not seem to be an issue overall.
With the larger 185 pulley the idler is now turning at a speed of 3.08 times the engine speed or about 18,500 rpm at full revs. This is excessive and addressed to decrease stress on the pulley and increase its life span. The following design change has been tested on our SRT’s on the street, road trips (Tail of the Dragon, Carlisle Chrysler Nationals), many auto crossing tracks with sustained high rpm operation (4000 – 6000) for up to a minute at a time and over a dozen dyno pulls to date. A Hefty stack of timeslips at the dragstrip and no issues or problems have been detected and all components appear to operate well in this design, the delay in releasing this kit was intentional to gather ample driving time to prove the reliability of the design.
In a nutshell’ the serpentine belt with this kit is replaced with a longer belt to allow for larger pulley to be installed, slowing their rotational speed significantly. The idler pulley is increased in size to 100MM reducing its operating speed to 60% of its previous speed. With the large 185 crank pulley operating at 6000 rpm, the idler pulley is only turning 1.85 times as fast or 11,100 rpm. This is a huge reduction in stress as this pulley carries most of the belt tension and has a 50% wrap which doubles its side thrust load.
Additional improvements include the replacement of the tensioner pulley with another 100mm pulley on the 178 and 181 pulley applications. This allows this pulley to operate at the same speed as noted above and is a 10% reduction from its previous speed. To allow enough belt length to maintain proper tension for the 185 pulley set-up I did not change the tensioner pulley from its original factory 90 MM diameter. A new 90mm pulley is included in the kit for the 185mm customers.
Another improvement feature is the elimination of the TINY grooved idler directly under the supercharger. This poor pulley really gets going due to its small diameter and is a failure waiting to happen. Instead a much larger grooved pulley is located near the alternator on a new grade 8 bolt with a massive ¼” thick stainless steel brace assembly. This brace is the definition of “overkill” and brings everything togather. This larger grooved pulley is turning over relatively slowly and serves to guide and position the belt just prior to it running over the supercharger pulley.
Because of the location of this redesigned groove pulley, the ¼” brace was created to solidly mount this pulley and tie it into the other engine support mounts. The idler pulley is supported on the right (driver side) of this brace providing positive bearing mounts support on both the front and rear sides of these two pulleys as shown in the following photographs. Virtually bulletproof engineering.
It should be noted that the supercharger has an increased amount of belt “wrap” due to the repositioning of the grooved ‘guide’ pulley. This would increase the load handling ability of the belt and in Waldig’s car has prevented belt slippage even though he has been experiencing manifold boost pressures of up to 25 PSIG. The belt wrap increase is helpful as a side benefit, and the improvement is probably in the order of a 10% torque handling capacity.
This improved pulley kit will provide you with additional pulley life and a caged pulley support capable of reducing damage in the unlikely event of a spun bearing caused by an age related failure. The supercharger has additional belt wrap / contact to prevent belt wear due to slippage under severe driving and high boost operation. Overall this kit will materially improve the reliability of your pulley and belt system.
Custom machined stainless steel spacers (thanks MikeR), custom ¼” thick stainless steel water jet brace, 3/8” grade 8 bolt/nut/washers, grade 10.9 metric bolt, 3 new pulleys and new longer belt will be included with the kit. This kit has been going thru testing on 4 different srt6’s to date. We are finally comfortable releasing this kit for the masses. Kit will fit srt6/slk32amg/c32amg vehicles with a 178mm, 181mm or 185mm aftermarket pulley kits.
As a side note, when we removed our 30k mile OEM belt we noticed a great amount of cracking in the stock belt and were relieved to be installing a new belt at that time. 4 of the 6 ribs were cracked on our belt in several locations. All components of this kit are readily available now and in the foreseeable future.
We have no problem warranty’ing the parts in the kit with a 1 year unlimited mile coverage but we will NOT put a blanket warranty on the engine/vehicle, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! (See our disclaimer on our website for further details). We are planning on making very little off these kits if we even do recoupe the r&d/parts/materials, this kit was designed by Waldig, tweaked by us and should help keep the SRT6’s turning heads on the road or track!
www.needswings.com/pics/psk1.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk2.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk3.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk4.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk5.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk6.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk7.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk8.jpg
The next chapter in a Waldig/NeedsWings Design.
After reviewing some of the prior issues Crossfire owners have had with their idler pulley failures, we started to consider the possibilities of an improved design. The real weakness in the design is the idler under the supercharger as it is often the smallest at 60 MM in diameter. With a stock crankshaft pulley of 155MM, the idler is running about 2.6 times faster or 15,500 rpm at our 6000 rpm redline.
The idler pulley is reduced in diameter to allow the stock belt to be used with the 178, 181, and the 185 pulley upgrades. The water pump pulley is also reduced in diameter to ‘free up‘ some additional belt length. This water pump pulley must be smaller in diameter to allow the larger pulley to be installed and does not seem to be an issue overall.
With the larger 185 pulley the idler is now turning at a speed of 3.08 times the engine speed or about 18,500 rpm at full revs. This is excessive and addressed to decrease stress on the pulley and increase its life span. The following design change has been tested on our SRT’s on the street, road trips (Tail of the Dragon, Carlisle Chrysler Nationals), many auto crossing tracks with sustained high rpm operation (4000 – 6000) for up to a minute at a time and over a dozen dyno pulls to date. A Hefty stack of timeslips at the dragstrip and no issues or problems have been detected and all components appear to operate well in this design, the delay in releasing this kit was intentional to gather ample driving time to prove the reliability of the design.
In a nutshell’ the serpentine belt with this kit is replaced with a longer belt to allow for larger pulley to be installed, slowing their rotational speed significantly. The idler pulley is increased in size to 100MM reducing its operating speed to 60% of its previous speed. With the large 185 crank pulley operating at 6000 rpm, the idler pulley is only turning 1.85 times as fast or 11,100 rpm. This is a huge reduction in stress as this pulley carries most of the belt tension and has a 50% wrap which doubles its side thrust load.
Additional improvements include the replacement of the tensioner pulley with another 100mm pulley on the 178 and 181 pulley applications. This allows this pulley to operate at the same speed as noted above and is a 10% reduction from its previous speed. To allow enough belt length to maintain proper tension for the 185 pulley set-up I did not change the tensioner pulley from its original factory 90 MM diameter. A new 90mm pulley is included in the kit for the 185mm customers.
Another improvement feature is the elimination of the TINY grooved idler directly under the supercharger. This poor pulley really gets going due to its small diameter and is a failure waiting to happen. Instead a much larger grooved pulley is located near the alternator on a new grade 8 bolt with a massive ¼” thick stainless steel brace assembly. This brace is the definition of “overkill” and brings everything togather. This larger grooved pulley is turning over relatively slowly and serves to guide and position the belt just prior to it running over the supercharger pulley.
Because of the location of this redesigned groove pulley, the ¼” brace was created to solidly mount this pulley and tie it into the other engine support mounts. The idler pulley is supported on the right (driver side) of this brace providing positive bearing mounts support on both the front and rear sides of these two pulleys as shown in the following photographs. Virtually bulletproof engineering.
It should be noted that the supercharger has an increased amount of belt “wrap” due to the repositioning of the grooved ‘guide’ pulley. This would increase the load handling ability of the belt and in Waldig’s car has prevented belt slippage even though he has been experiencing manifold boost pressures of up to 25 PSIG. The belt wrap increase is helpful as a side benefit, and the improvement is probably in the order of a 10% torque handling capacity.
This improved pulley kit will provide you with additional pulley life and a caged pulley support capable of reducing damage in the unlikely event of a spun bearing caused by an age related failure. The supercharger has additional belt wrap / contact to prevent belt wear due to slippage under severe driving and high boost operation. Overall this kit will materially improve the reliability of your pulley and belt system.
Custom machined stainless steel spacers (thanks MikeR), custom ¼” thick stainless steel water jet brace, 3/8” grade 8 bolt/nut/washers, grade 10.9 metric bolt, 3 new pulleys and new longer belt will be included with the kit. This kit has been going thru testing on 4 different srt6’s to date. We are finally comfortable releasing this kit for the masses. Kit will fit srt6/slk32amg/c32amg vehicles with a 178mm, 181mm or 185mm aftermarket pulley kits.
As a side note, when we removed our 30k mile OEM belt we noticed a great amount of cracking in the stock belt and were relieved to be installing a new belt at that time. 4 of the 6 ribs were cracked on our belt in several locations. All components of this kit are readily available now and in the foreseeable future.
We have no problem warranty’ing the parts in the kit with a 1 year unlimited mile coverage but we will NOT put a blanket warranty on the engine/vehicle, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! (See our disclaimer on our website for further details). We are planning on making very little off these kits if we even do recoupe the r&d/parts/materials, this kit was designed by Waldig, tweaked by us and should help keep the SRT6’s turning heads on the road or track!
www.needswings.com/pics/psk1.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk2.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk3.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk4.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk5.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk6.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk7.jpg
www.needswings.com/pics/psk8.jpg
However, I disagree with your statement that side thrust increases as the amount of wrap increases, side thrust is dependent on belt tension which varies along its path. Which pulley has a 50% wrap the idler or the s/c? A 50% wrap would have the belt to and from the pulley parallel.
She can ride with me ;)
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 3
From: Sharon, PA
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by SRT6 Gang Member
My datalogger has a load monitoring option. Where is the load being measured? This may be a benifital option to watch with this mod.
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 405
Likes: 1
From: Phoenix/Scottsdale
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
For clarification, from either Waldig or Rob, does this replace the tensioner? I thought i read something about replacing the tensioner for those with the 185. My tensioner pulley bolt/s are stripped. So would this also solve that problem as well? Or am I making things up that I want to be reading? lol
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 30
From: VA
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
WEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKENDWEEKEND
180
The idler has two belt halves pulling on the idler to the right and the tension is twice the WEEKEND belt tension. I did not increase the tension, it is there from the factory.
Lowering the rotational speed is an assist to the life of the bearing by reducing the WEEKEND stress. Please look at the belt diagram on last page to see what Iam talking about. Larger idlers lower the rpm and decrease distress on the pulley. A longer WEEKEND belt allows this and the whole works to run better as a result.
JT
This uses the factory mounts and if your stripped, you need to WEEKENDget me some photos and shoot them to me so I can cogitate on it fro ya. Might have a fix here or there. You all should have seen the stud kit from ebay to convert the wheel bolts over. Not sure if that is a plus or not, but it is out there for ya.
Finally the WEEKEND pulley saver is to slow the pulleys and use a longer belt to keep the tensioner "spring" in the middle sweet spot position. Belt wrap angle is slightly improved but not enough to write home about. WEEKEND WEEKEND
Enjoy WEEKENDW
dy
180
The idler has two belt halves pulling on the idler to the right and the tension is twice the WEEKEND belt tension. I did not increase the tension, it is there from the factory.
Lowering the rotational speed is an assist to the life of the bearing by reducing the WEEKEND stress. Please look at the belt diagram on last page to see what Iam talking about. Larger idlers lower the rpm and decrease distress on the pulley. A longer WEEKEND belt allows this and the whole works to run better as a result.
JT
This uses the factory mounts and if your stripped, you need to WEEKENDget me some photos and shoot them to me so I can cogitate on it fro ya. Might have a fix here or there. You all should have seen the stud kit from ebay to convert the wheel bolts over. Not sure if that is a plus or not, but it is out there for ya.
Finally the WEEKEND pulley saver is to slow the pulleys and use a longer belt to keep the tensioner "spring" in the middle sweet spot position. Belt wrap angle is slightly improved but not enough to write home about. WEEKEND WEEKEND
Enjoy WEEKENDW
dy
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 4
From: murfreesboro,tn
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 74
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Before you pull back on the nut to release tension, tighten the nut a wee bit so that when you pull back on it it doesn't come loose. I did this on both cars and have yet to have the nut come loose.
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...tml#post397634
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...tml#post397634
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 4
From: murfreesboro,tn
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by tighed1
Before you pull back on the nut to release tension, tighten the nut a wee bit so that when you pull back on it it doesn't come loose. I did this on both cars and have yet to have the nut come loose.
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...tml#post397634
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...tml#post397634
jturkel has the 185 and also has issues
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 405
Likes: 1
From: Phoenix/Scottsdale
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by 32krazy!
i have tried this numerous times. even applied blue locktite and still the tensioner nut comes loose before the belt can be slipped on with the diy wrap kit. im hoping with the c3 pulley im getting it will allow enough slack to get the job done.
jturkel has the 185 and also has issues
jturkel has the 185 and also has issues
be careful with trying to get "just enough slack" to get back one
if there is to much tension in the belt from insufficient slack, it might really hurt the bolts or pulleys
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 4
From: murfreesboro,tn
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by jturkel
i've tried tightening it up and it doesnt work for me either. just comes loose.
be careful with trying to get "just enough slack" to get back one
if there is to much tension in the belt from insufficient slack, it might really hurt the bolts or pulleys
be careful with trying to get "just enough slack" to get back one
if there is to much tension in the belt from insufficient slack, it might really hurt the bolts or pulleys
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 99
From: Michigan
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by tighed1
Before you pull back on the nut to release tension, tighten the nut a wee bit so that when you pull back on it it doesn't come loose. I did this on both cars and have yet to have the nut come loose.
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...tml#post397634
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...tml#post397634
Thread Starter
|
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 99
From: Michigan
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
ok, several more kits went out today, the remainders we will have all the pulleys in for by the weeks end (supposed to be wednesday but we'll see).
gates had enough in stock to cover all order we have up until now, at that point i think we will have only enough for another kit or 2 until they make more belts. we do have an alternative though. gates does make another belt in the correct size and it is a more heavy duty belt but the thing is green instead of black. they do have a good supply of those but again they are green. do we want green HD or black (shown in kit above) and all future orders would be at least a month out?
if anyone with a current order wants to switch up to the HD green belt let me know asap please.
here is what the green belt will look like
http://www.gates.com/common/images/G...nsidepanel.jpg
gates had enough in stock to cover all order we have up until now, at that point i think we will have only enough for another kit or 2 until they make more belts. we do have an alternative though. gates does make another belt in the correct size and it is a more heavy duty belt but the thing is green instead of black. they do have a good supply of those but again they are green. do we want green HD or black (shown in kit above) and all future orders would be at least a month out?
if anyone with a current order wants to switch up to the HD green belt let me know asap please.
here is what the green belt will look like
http://www.gates.com/common/images/G...nsidepanel.jpg
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: North Plains, OR
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,663
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From: Michigan
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by MikeR
Lets see here...am I more concerned with the color of the belt or the performance.......DUH!!
I know lots of folks do care about the color. (I also know I am a smart @$$)
I know lots of folks do care about the color. (I also know I am a smart @$$)
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,422
Likes: 3
From: IL
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
well with the black belt and if you paint the bracket and spacers black i doubt a chrysler tech would notice the kit installed durrign normal wartranty work. the green belt on the other hand will stick out like.... well a green belt, lol
Also, there is usually some sort of trade off - is the HD green belt "longer life" but maybe not as grippy. Kind of like ordering hard tires that last a long time but traction sucks?
What is the belt size? What about the Gatorback belt?
I am guessing mine was not one of today's shipments (order 7296)
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Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,663
Likes: 99
From: Michigan
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by 70GT6
I really would prefer a black belt.
Also, there is usually some sort of trade off - is the HD green belt "longer life" but maybe not as grippy. Kind of like ordering hard tires that last a long time but traction sucks?
What is the belt size? What about the Gatorback belt?
I am guessing mine was not one of today's shipments (order 7296)
Also, there is usually some sort of trade off - is the HD green belt "longer life" but maybe not as grippy. Kind of like ordering hard tires that last a long time but traction sucks?
What is the belt size? What about the Gatorback belt?
I am guessing mine was not one of today's shipments (order 7296)
i sent you a couple emails last night, none of the 185mm kits have gone out yet, waiting on the 90mm pulleys to arrive this week to get those kits together.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,349
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From: murfreesboro,tn
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
your not using a e10 torx socket and grabbing the stud itself when you are releasing the tension? forgive me if im misunderstanding.
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 405
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From: Phoenix/Scottsdale
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by 32krazy!
your not misunderstanding. because i didnt know to remove the fan assy. before starting the lack of room caused the male torx to strip on me. same with jturkel. so now there is no way to relaease the tension without replacing the tensioner. m/b part is 500$ and parts.com hasit for 197$. still pretty steep!
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Joined: Apr 2009
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From: murfreesboro,tn
Re: Pulley Saver Kit
Originally Posted by jturkel
maybe there is a way to purchase the e10 torx stud independently of the entire tensioner assembly?