WHOA, NO AFR DATALOGS OR GAUGES??????? AT 24PSI???

detonation was a big risk here.

even on an AMG built motor, you gotta pay attention to your AFR's at boost levels OUTSIDE of what the factory MAP can handle....

 

totally agree with you...BUT one more time...where the heck are you guys getting 24psi??????

please follow the thread- Kirks AFR has always been right on par. He has never had a lean condition register, nor has his car thrown P0171 or P0174 like other forum members have reported.

 

They get 24lbs from every other SRT6 owner that has the 185mm and a needswing intake. I personally saw 240M3SRT6’s car hit 24+ with the same set up as Kurt and multiple versions of Jerry’s Tune. I also saw that car hit 17+ AFR as well.

 

Hopefully it all gets worked out.

 

Several lessons to be learned here.

As stated prevoiusly - all the vendors on this site have had QC and design issues.

Seen em' with pullies from all the vendors (178mm idler failure, 181/185 WP pulley failure and SC pulley issues that are ongoing) - Seen em' with the NW intakes for the NA' Crossfires.

It happens - and everyone on the forum needs to work together to solve them.

Plenty of questions on this issue that need to be explained a little more - without firing salvos at each other.

1) Do the NW manifolds require the NW gasket set - or can you also use factory gaskets?

2) Are the flanges on the NW manifolds thick enough to handle more then 7lb of torque without bending/warping?

3) Do the NW manifolds require more torque pressure then the OEM recommended torque to properly seal?

4) NW - Did the the manifold in question require re-decking?

I also feel that once the manifold in question was installed, the leak discovered, and you were unable to resolve the leak issue with new gasket(s) or the phenolic spacer removed - then the stock manifolds should have been re-installed and NW's manifolds send back for rework or a refund.

I know sometimes you want to hop up on the dyno and get happy (I know this feeling very well) but sometimes it's best to take a step back and show some patience.

All the vendors on this forum have always stepped up and made good on their products to forum members.

I suggest that NW reimburse Eurocharged Performance for 1/2 the cost of the shop engine now in RIOTS SRT6 (RIOT was always touting his NW intake so I feel he's on the level) and Eurocharged eat the other half and RIOT pay Eurocharged for the installation and extra parts involved.

Just a suggestion to iron it all out.

 

uh?

I will find kirks dyno that was done a little bit prior to install as well as the one when it was on the dyno when it happened. We used his car as a test for the exhaust that we did for Bryan. His AF average was 13.8

Here is the testing done by LET on the 185. 57 degree dyno room with a 185 and no lean AFR

 

You saw 240's car go lean 17+ AFR because of Sheldon's modified Mani's. Cars with 185 and an intake still are within the limits of the factory fuel system. Once you add in Modified manifolds to the equation you have the lean condition.

 

good post, and I'm sure Rob will jump in.

As far as the dyno question. In all honesty we didn't find the leak or know about it until we hit boost on the dyno. Then it was uh oh time.

And I agree, several lessions for everyone, forum members included. You play with a risk when you mod your car, with us or any other vendor.

 

I can upload 20+ of 240’s dyno files that all show 12-13 afr. I also know that what these cars do on a dyno and what they do on the street are two different things. A tailpipe sniffer is no substitute for real gauges with real sending units.

On the record I think you guys did do a stand up thing! I have parts from all the SRT6 vendors, and will sing the praises of all of you guys.

 

I also witnessed 240’s issues and they were with out his manifolds on during my encounter.

 

No sir...stock manifolds. We had them off the car already.

 

I used the old fashion method when I re-installed my factory plenums after polishing and installing the LET spacers.

With the engine at idle and the intake under vacuum, I sprayed around the flanges with carburetor cleaner, listening for changes in engine RPM or rough idle.

Passing that test, when I jumped on the dyno (I had installed a few other mods at the same time) I sprayed the flanges with a water/detergent mixture (this sticks better - just ask any protestor who makes Molotov Cocktails).

I then had the dyno operator run the SRT in 2nd or 3rd gear with just enough engine RPM to register +PSI on the boost gauge and inspect for bubbles. (You don't want to pop your head in the engine bay when in 4th gear at 6,000 RPM - not wise)

Finding none - let her rip........oh yea......uhhh......ummm.....ohhh...

 

I would gladly take a refund on the Manis....and they have not been on a car since you sent them to Euro-

1,415.00 Dollars I believe...I paid you at the beginning of November...And got my parts in Feb.

 

Well after 77 posts I think it was obvious someone couldn't pick up the phone and speak to rob if they felt they wanted a refund or that the blame was his which I don't think any of it was. Even if Rob sent you a manifold with a quarter size hole in it, you don't go hey there's a hole in this one lets weld something over it and run it anyway. You send it back. You don't get rtv and try and form your own gasket then take it for a high rpm dyno run. It was said they were not decked correctly if that was the case was this noticed on the 1st install (Hence not using the gasket that came with it) the 2nd, 3rd or 4th? Again *Phone call* Hey rob were trying to get this intake on and one sides gasket isn't getting a good seal we think it maybe a defect can we overnight this to you and get a good one asap? I'm sure it would have been done and if it was a part error he would have paid the shipping, that's how he is.

Brian I disagree that Rob should pay half of this I think a refund though would be right if that's what Riot wants, but again pick up the phone and call him and ask him don't let this drag on in the forums.

 

Just caught this little statement as a viewer whom is neutral. You (generally speaking) can easily "over torque" a bolt without ever coming close to breaking the fastener or stripping the threads—thus the importance of a correct torque setting.

Also, just after skimming over these posts, no where was there a mention of a proper torque sequence. Was this ever addressed?

After reading this sentence it would appear that this might also be an issue?

Every engine that my Dad and I had built was re-torqued (where soft gaskets are used, i.e. intake manifolds, headers etc.) because the parts are moving when they get up to temperature.

 

According to EuroCharge's comments, the leak was not noticable when the Plenums were first installed. Only when the car was run up to power did the gasket blow.

"If" the Plenum was not decked correctly - and without machiniest tools to check (something most forum members don't have) then NW delivered a faulty component to a loyal customer. (It happens)

"If" this had been an "at home" install and you found out during a "road test", an worse accident could have happenend.

On the other hand - being a "shop install" - and, has I stated before, knowing that there are some simple testing methods that "may" have discovered the faulty Plenum, then further engine damage "might" have been avoided.

Like I say, 50% on the replacement motor to each side and full refund to RIOT is not unreasonable.

 

sean, if you follow the steps of the thread you will notice that we only took it on a dyno the first time. It was run 1 and a half times, the second being when we shut it down as we stated in the middle of this thread. Then we found the problem. The car was never on the dyno after that. We didn't realize the damage had been done to the engine at that time and worked to address the leak. After the gasket blew, we tried sealing it at the shop with mercedes gaskets with the phenoloic. They didn't seat. We then tried without phenolic, they didn't seat.

We then called rob. We had lenthy coversations as well as numerous emails and he was very plesent to deal with and did help out with the situation as he replaced our gaskets and even volunteered to pay some of the shop time for the install- one that I wouldn't accept him doing.

And NO, if it is not decked correctly you won't see a gaping whole in it. A boost leak under high rpm might not be as noticable under idle. I told RIOT that we should have not spent so much time on it and sent them back. At that point once again, the damage was done. This is also why I paid for the dyno charge and most of the troubleshooting from our neighbors shop, why I ate the cost of the install of the plenums and catch can we did, as well as the cost of the mercedes gaskets (6) that we went through.

Its not like it happened and we kept running the car.............

 

That is my thought exactly....and you are correct in your assessment of the situation. A road test would have been bad in this situation, and I am personally glad I was there as I wouldn't have been able to get through the guilt if something happened to Kirk due to the install. This is also why I agreed to eat cost and throw a motor in his car. Money well spent in my opinion. For the record we have not ever asked needswings for any monitary reimbursement for anything.

 

I see, I mentioned a hole in the manifold as something of a "what if". I think the length of this thread only confuses what happend more then the point that Riot had a problem with his engine after 80+ posts. Yourself and Riots posting seem different at times but it all seems to point at a faulty manifold which we haven't found out if this was the case or not. None of us were present to see the install so were going by what we know and what is being said. We're all Crossfire owners and I think we want to see Riot continue to enjoy his SRT-6 rob has a good product as many people including yourself have agreed to.

Brian I think anyone who installs after market products on there car runs the risk of damage even with changing an oil filter if it's not done correctly. Not saying there was fault on either side but you can't come out say because you bought my oil filter then put it on to tight pinched the gasket and drove down the freeway spraying oil that I'm at fault and should pay for half your engine then again if you oil filter was defective you'd have every right to ask that in full.

My opinion only but from a relationship stand point I would like to see Riot get some use out of the Manifolds and enjoy it, but both parties should have a talk about it and figure out what Riot is looking for.

 

Edited for the better of the forum and only speculations and assumptions on my part. 185 rules. If you quoted me feel free to erase.