Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
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From: Philly, PA
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by ACRucrazy
If you are running so rich that the cylinderwalls get washed with fuel, you loose lubrication, cause friction and eventually disaster.
Interesting thread, thanks for the pics.
Interesting thread, thanks for the pics.
I know the stock ECU adapts dynamically to what the O2 sensors are telling it, within certain limits. When an aftermarket tune gets loaded, is it more of a "static" fuel map? Or am I overlooking something simple?
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From: IN
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Well, let me just say this, I can't wait to meet you guys in person...I have been in and out of racing and playing hard, with bikes as well as cars my whole life, and no one, not even my friends who own shops, have ever offered me a free motor...even though I have spent thousands of dollars with them...so Kirk, you are hangin' with some stand up guys my friend...see you guys soon....
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Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM
Quick question here - since the O2 sensors would be downstream of this "boost leak causing pig rich AFR" problem, why wouldn't they report effectively to the ECU "too rich! cut fuel!"
I know the stock ECU adapts dynamically to what the O2 sensors are telling it, within certain limits. When an aftermarket tune gets loaded, is it more of a "static" fuel map? Or am I overlooking something simple?
I know the stock ECU adapts dynamically to what the O2 sensors are telling it, within certain limits. When an aftermarket tune gets loaded, is it more of a "static" fuel map? Or am I overlooking something simple?
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From: VA
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Just my experience, but if there was a boost leak, it would affect the entire manifold and make the whole side pig rich. This would affect the entire intake manifold and the three cylinders on that bank. The engine will throw a missfire code - lots of them.
With me running 24 PSIG now I have to be sure that Iam full temp to even get down it a little. If 1/2 warm it'll go into a catatonic fit missing in a limp mode that forces me to pull over and turn off the engine and restart it to get engine power again. The fault light comes on to show you that it is not happy, missfire codes are loaded.
THe raw fuel would flood the exhaust system and there would be more than a miss. The ring lands are apparently detonation damage, which seems unlikely with a rich mixture. If the boost was low the power would have been down and reduce the likely hood of detonation further.
I dont believe the rings were dragging either as the scratches were from the thrust face of the pistons. Again the detonation seems to be at work here and there is the blown head gasket as further evidence.
When I installed my phenolic spacers, I had some alignment issues with the spacers and it ran rough. You can look up my thread about a year ago. After lots of testing I found that I had goofed it up and reinstalled the gaskets and spacers correctly which solved the problem. I had a miss and lower boost but no damage.
Detonation is a cylinder firing before top dead center of the piston cycle. As the piston is pushed up on the compression cycle, spontaneous combustion lights/ignites the fuel-air mixture forcing the piston against the upward motion of the crankshaft and inducing severe piston slap or PING (ing).
Heat, too much compression, or carbon hot spots are the typical detonation causes in addition to fuel with an octane rating that is too low to resist the effects of the other factors mentioned.
Further I believe that detonation caused the head gasket to fail. If it were the other way around, the water jacket leaks would steam clean the piston and the head combustion area, removing the carbon. What I see is oil on the combustion area due to the ring failure.
Low boost would cause the f/a mixture to go pig rich as the engine is in open loop at WOT. The fuel map gives the amount of gas to be injected based on the rpm and is not based on the O2 sensors. If the boost were low the fuel shot from the injector would be EVEN larger as a result of less boost pressure on the business end of the injector, providing a greater pressure differential to the injector. This effect one of the reasons that the injectors have a harder time delivering the desired fuel shot at high boost, the boost pressure pushes against the injector harder reducing the fuel flow and delivery.
?? Were there any codes pulled with this failure?? THat might be constructive in understanding that cause (s) and their prevention, ultimately. Misses on one cyinder or bank ??
Woody
?? WERE
With me running 24 PSIG now I have to be sure that Iam full temp to even get down it a little. If 1/2 warm it'll go into a catatonic fit missing in a limp mode that forces me to pull over and turn off the engine and restart it to get engine power again. The fault light comes on to show you that it is not happy, missfire codes are loaded.
THe raw fuel would flood the exhaust system and there would be more than a miss. The ring lands are apparently detonation damage, which seems unlikely with a rich mixture. If the boost was low the power would have been down and reduce the likely hood of detonation further.
I dont believe the rings were dragging either as the scratches were from the thrust face of the pistons. Again the detonation seems to be at work here and there is the blown head gasket as further evidence.
When I installed my phenolic spacers, I had some alignment issues with the spacers and it ran rough. You can look up my thread about a year ago. After lots of testing I found that I had goofed it up and reinstalled the gaskets and spacers correctly which solved the problem. I had a miss and lower boost but no damage.
Detonation is a cylinder firing before top dead center of the piston cycle. As the piston is pushed up on the compression cycle, spontaneous combustion lights/ignites the fuel-air mixture forcing the piston against the upward motion of the crankshaft and inducing severe piston slap or PING (ing).
Heat, too much compression, or carbon hot spots are the typical detonation causes in addition to fuel with an octane rating that is too low to resist the effects of the other factors mentioned.
Further I believe that detonation caused the head gasket to fail. If it were the other way around, the water jacket leaks would steam clean the piston and the head combustion area, removing the carbon. What I see is oil on the combustion area due to the ring failure.
Low boost would cause the f/a mixture to go pig rich as the engine is in open loop at WOT. The fuel map gives the amount of gas to be injected based on the rpm and is not based on the O2 sensors. If the boost were low the fuel shot from the injector would be EVEN larger as a result of less boost pressure on the business end of the injector, providing a greater pressure differential to the injector. This effect one of the reasons that the injectors have a harder time delivering the desired fuel shot at high boost, the boost pressure pushes against the injector harder reducing the fuel flow and delivery.
?? Were there any codes pulled with this failure?? THat might be constructive in understanding that cause (s) and their prevention, ultimately. Misses on one cyinder or bank ??
Woody
?? WERE
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Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by loungn14
Too funny, that was my first thought, but they were torqued to 7 as spec'd
We took one of the plenums off the car and placed it on a piece of glass. We were able to rock it back and forth noticabally, as well as fit feeler shims in the gaps when leaning on the plenum from the top.
That was probably the deciding factor for Rob to take them back and have them properly re-decked.
We received the fixed units and performed the same test on the glass. No movement whatsoever. The other ones were definately out quite a bit.
We took one of the plenums off the car and placed it on a piece of glass. We were able to rock it back and forth noticabally, as well as fit feeler shims in the gaps when leaning on the plenum from the top.
That was probably the deciding factor for Rob to take them back and have them properly re-decked.
We received the fixed units and performed the same test on the glass. No movement whatsoever. The other ones were definately out quite a bit.
Thanks....
She can ride with me ;)
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From: Sharon, PA
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by tom2112
Thanks for dumbing that down for me Kirk. 
Did I see someone above mention that they torqued the plenums down to 7 ft/lbs? I thought they were supposed to be set to 15?!?
Did I see someone above mention that they torqued the plenums down to 7 ft/lbs? I thought they were supposed to be set to 15?!?
http://www.majormotorshotrods.com/_d...ice_Manual.pdf
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From: VA
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
If one PORT of the manifold was leaking, it would affect the manifold pressure and the loss in boost would carry over to the other cylinders on that same side of the motor.
You cant have a boost leak without it reducing the pressure of the entire engine. Loss in boost is loss in boost. THe effect would be less on the opposite side of the engine due to frictional restrictions of the intake down pipes, serving to isolate the other side some. The codes would be helpful to further under some of the underlying factors.
Woody
You cant have a boost leak without it reducing the pressure of the entire engine. Loss in boost is loss in boost. THe effect would be less on the opposite side of the engine due to frictional restrictions of the intake down pipes, serving to isolate the other side some. The codes would be helpful to further under some of the underlying factors.
Woody
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Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by waldig
If one PORT of the manifold was leaking, it would affect the manifold pressure and the loss in boost would carry over to the other cylinders on that same side of the motor.
You cant have a boost leak without it reducing the pressure of the entire engine. Loss in boost is loss in boost. THe effect would be less on the opposite side of the engine due to frictional restrictions of the intake down pipes, serving to isolate the other side some. The codes would be helpful to further under some of the underlying factors.
Woody
You cant have a boost leak without it reducing the pressure of the entire engine. Loss in boost is loss in boost. THe effect would be less on the opposite side of the engine due to frictional restrictions of the intake down pipes, serving to isolate the other side some. The codes would be helpful to further under some of the underlying factors.
Woody
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From: Elburn, IL
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by Bulldogger
The reduction in boost for the non leaking cylinders would be uniform, not the one where the gasket blows out especially when you are making the full pull. Look at the piston side it isn't melted, it is fractured either it started to sieze and snapped at the weakest point the ring land or hydro-locked. I would like to know if the rod is also bent, and if the low end bearings look hammered from the diesel effect of unburned fueling
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From: Plainfield, IL
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by BrianBrave
If the re-man plenums have not already been installed on the replacement motor that you provided to RIOT; and RIOT plans to re-install them - could you do a run dyno before and after the plenum install for comparison?
Thanks....
Thanks....
Woody, the plenum on the one side of the car was out of level by quite a bit, it wasn't an install issue...
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Originally Posted by loungn14
If he wants to put them on the car, sure. Thats what we were trying to do in the first place
Woody, the plenum on the one side of the car was out of level by quite a bit, it wasn't an install issue...
Woody, the plenum on the one side of the car was out of level by quite a bit, it wasn't an install issue...
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From: Plainfield, IL
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From: Plainfield, IL
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From: VA
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
The comment I made about my install of spacers was relating to my miss experience. I dont want anyone to misunderstand that I was suggesting that the manifolds in discussion were installed incorrectly.
I could not know that and again I was pointing out that the manifold leak I had created a great miss and lousy idle until I corrected my work.
This thread could be useful to keep people from being too complacent. Sort of wakes everone up to know the concequences of working with performance engines, they can bite ya too.
Glad it been fixed and that there was such an indepth review of the pieces.
Woody
I could not know that and again I was pointing out that the manifold leak I had created a great miss and lousy idle until I corrected my work.
This thread could be useful to keep people from being too complacent. Sort of wakes everone up to know the concequences of working with performance engines, they can bite ya too.
Glad it been fixed and that there was such an indepth review of the pieces.
Woody
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From: Plainfield, IL
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Sure, I’ll play…
I also didn’t bring up the months of emails from RIOT that he was waiting on his product either.
If you check the post above Rob, you will see that we posted the correct torque setting. Yes, we had to remove and replace them. And yes, like stated we used Mercedes gaskets as yours had failed and we didn’t have any more. If the wobble was due to over-torquing, you would see the weld fail or obvious evidence on the unit. That is not there, nor was it.
So explain that to me. A properly decked manifold (your opinion) mating to a known flat surface (engine) warmed under torque? Uh, for that to happen wouldn’t one of the pieces need to be out of wack? If they were “over-torqued” then we would have simply broken a bolt head or stripped it right? If both pieces were flat, they would mate. Also we noticed that the properly torqued rear bolts would come loose after a while, almost to the point you could loosen with your fingers. I don’t think that has anything to do with what we are discussing though.
Yes, we did call you didn’t we. I tried to keep the stuff off the forum out of respect for mutual vendors, and got your number from a mutual friend. The car did run better with the stocks, but the damage was already done. And Btw, Kirk keeps his car in the garage and works seasonal summers so he doesn’t drive it. He was recently on vacation and decided to get on this when he was gone.
(now the story changes to it never ran correctly) i agree'd to have them overnighted here for us to check out and redecked them if needed (even though they were decked a week earlier). once i recieved the manifolds back (thrown into a windshield washer box), i almost cried when i saw the condition of them, i couldnt beleive they were only a week old and assumed kurt hadnt seen their condition or im assume he would have flipped out. They were covered in scratches, dings, dents, rtv and oil. so we had them and reworked, sanded them down again, recoated and fly cut again and overnighted them back.
Nope, story has always been that. It didn’t run correctly. They were definitely not decked correctly. Do you remember saying that your guy must not have decked them correctly? We had 5 people in the shop, Kirk and another forum member looking at the car though-out the entire process. One of those people even has your manifolds as well. They were definitely not decked correctly. As far as the condition, yes, there were scratches on the units and the poor welding that held the nw logo on was broken. Yes, we used a windshield washer box. (it’s a box man) Yes, they were bubble wrapped with the same materials used to send, and yes extra packing peanuts were used in the shipment back. Kirk was there the whole time. He knows quite well the condition and countless hours spent trying to get them to work. I fully admit that after that much time they didn’t look showroom fresh, and I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for that. This is also why I ate 15 hours of labor, 6 new Mercedes gaskets, the cost of the dyno, as well as some of the cost associated with the neighbor shop looking at the car.
of course the "tighened the hell of out them trying to get the car going" as you told me over the phone
Uh where is this coming from? News to me….we always had proper torque spec and even corrected another member that thought it was 15.
It was actually 4 installs but doesn’t matter. I know about your gaskets, have them on our shop cars. We also had one of the gaskets at the shop as we put them on another car and he had damaged one of the one he had tried to put on. When placing the manifold on the gasket on a piece of glass there was a gap. Rob, I did call you when we were at the end of our rope. We didn’t understand this one, as it’s a pretty simple install that we have done before with no issues.
the gasket blowing out is new news to me as thats a different story from what i was told on the phone. i was told after attempting to use our gaskets you decided to try 3 sets of stock gaskets in several other combinations.
Yup, we tried with phenolic and without phenolic. We were on the phone right after the gasket blew.
Where did you get 24psi and 17:1?? Im quite confused…Kirks AFR has always been right on par. He has never had a lean condition register, nor has his car thrown P0171 or P0174 like other forum members have reported. Both of our shop C32's (one of which runs a 192mm pulley with no fuel system mods) has never seen a lean condition either. LET is in house and has done his tuning. He was running the same tune with the new mani’s he has always ran? Are you saying not to run a car with the mani’s until your ghost tune it without turning it on?
for the statement of it not being an install issue is incorrect
1. wrong torque specs
2. wrong gastkets
3. what was the rtv for?
i imagine the instruction sheet was not even read. we have close to 30 sets of these intake manifolds being run now and this is the only issue of this kind.
i have a lot of speculation as to what may have happened but its just speculation as i wasnt there. i'm sure we nor kurt will ever get the full story. its a shame.
1- previously discussed- nada
2- wrong gaskets – stock gaskets used after “right” ones failed from leak
3- Neighbors performance shop used the rtv to try and get a seal
Im sure you do rob. Kirk (not kurt) was actually there the entire time. (lucky for us)
Rob, keep in mind, I LOVE the product. It is very well done, and a true gift to this community. If one side went one as easy as the other we wouldn’t be in this “mess”
I understand that you have 30 set out there working marvelously. That’s great. But, we have hundreds of pulleys out there as well. Things happen and parts fail. It’s the nature of the beast. It wasn’t until something like this happened to LET a year ago that we tightened the hell our of our QA process. EVERY pulley is taken apart by me or Jerry, test fit to one of the spare motors, and put back together torquing to correct specs.
I guess your not coming to Chicago for beers then huh…..
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
your story is missing quite a few convenient holes in it for you.
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
i believe that is due to torqueing them down well past our 15ft/lbs.
If you check the post above Rob, you will see that we posted the correct torque setting. Yes, we had to remove and replace them. And yes, like stated we used Mercedes gaskets as yours had failed and we didn’t have any more. If the wobble was due to over-torquing, you would see the weld fail or obvious evidence on the unit. That is not there, nor was it.
So explain that to me. A properly decked manifold (your opinion) mating to a known flat surface (engine) warmed under torque? Uh, for that to happen wouldn’t one of the pieces need to be out of wack? If they were “over-torqued” then we would have simply broken a bolt head or stripped it right? If both pieces were flat, they would mate. Also we noticed that the properly torqued rear bolts would come loose after a while, almost to the point you could loosen with your fingers. I don’t think that has anything to do with what we are discussing though.
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
i got the call saying they were not flat and that you were swapping those with the stock manifolds back and forth and when the stock manifolds went back onto the car that the car ran perfect and smooth (in your words... "with the stock mani's back on the car is perfect so it must be the manifolds") and was driven around and then home (about a month ago, how many miles was it driven since then?)
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
(now the story changes to it never ran correctly) i agree'd to have them overnighted here for us to check out and redecked them if needed (even though they were decked a week earlier). once i recieved the manifolds back (thrown into a windshield washer box), i almost cried when i saw the condition of them, i couldnt beleive they were only a week old and assumed kurt hadnt seen their condition or im assume he would have flipped out. They were covered in scratches, dings, dents, rtv and oil. so we had them and reworked, sanded them down again, recoated and fly cut again and overnighted them back.
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
of course the "tighened the hell of out them trying to get the car going" as you told me over the phone
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
had nothing to do with measuring 0.00x" off of pefectly flat after 6-7 installs going against our instructions. btw, our gaskets are 0.0675" thick and compress. the manifolds seal with a gasket and our welding test plate even before they are decked when we pressure test them to over 30psi. if i would have gotten a call at the beginning of this instead of after a week of stock gasket tries i would have happily sent more gaskets or asked to see the mani's back here to assess them at that point. i probably would have driven out to chicago myself. instead i hear from kurt after eurocharged has given up.
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
the gasket blowing out is new news to me as thats a different story from what i was told on the phone. i was told after attempting to use our gaskets you decided to try 3 sets of stock gaskets in several other combinations.
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
of course the detonation has nothing to do with running 24psi thru a non monitored car, and of course he has a map sensor able to understand that boost level and the tune was surely able to supply adequet fuel even tho no one else has been able to hold anywhere close to a safe afr anywhere over 22psi with a stock fuel system? so everyone that has tried that has saw a 17:1 afr must have a bad wideband gauge i guess.
if too much boost and no compensation its possible to collapse the pistion on the ring groove, which freezes the ring, which puts so much force on the top of the piston, ring grooves can crush, nolonger able to float and at that point you can start scoring cyl walls, at which point you lose compression. at which point the same amount of fuel gets dumped as the inj doesnt know the compression has been changed.
if too much boost and no compensation its possible to collapse the pistion on the ring groove, which freezes the ring, which puts so much force on the top of the piston, ring grooves can crush, nolonger able to float and at that point you can start scoring cyl walls, at which point you lose compression. at which point the same amount of fuel gets dumped as the inj doesnt know the compression has been changed.
Originally Posted by NeedsWings
for the statement of it not being an install issue is incorrect
1. wrong torque specs
2. wrong gastkets
3. what was the rtv for?
i imagine the instruction sheet was not even read. we have close to 30 sets of these intake manifolds being run now and this is the only issue of this kind.
i have a lot of speculation as to what may have happened but its just speculation as i wasnt there. i'm sure we nor kurt will ever get the full story. its a shame.
2- wrong gaskets – stock gaskets used after “right” ones failed from leak
3- Neighbors performance shop used the rtv to try and get a seal
Im sure you do rob. Kirk (not kurt) was actually there the entire time. (lucky for us)
Rob, keep in mind, I LOVE the product. It is very well done, and a true gift to this community. If one side went one as easy as the other we wouldn’t be in this “mess”
I understand that you have 30 set out there working marvelously. That’s great. But, we have hundreds of pulleys out there as well. Things happen and parts fail. It’s the nature of the beast. It wasn’t until something like this happened to LET a year ago that we tightened the hell our of our QA process. EVERY pulley is taken apart by me or Jerry, test fit to one of the spare motors, and put back together torquing to correct specs.
I guess your not coming to Chicago for beers then huh…..
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From: Los Angeles
Re: Kirks (RIOT) motor thread
Another side heard from…interesting.
Apparently there is some culpability all ‘round. Any hotrodder who is honest with himself knows the stakes when he chooses to play the horsepower game. Been burned myself in the past.
It is, however, the installer in this instance that is taking the rather sizable financial hit by supplying and installing a functional engine in RIOT’s car. Regardless of the failure’s ultimate precipitating factors, it is EuroCharged that is making him whole. I commend and respect them for doing so.
Apparently there is some culpability all ‘round. Any hotrodder who is honest with himself knows the stakes when he chooses to play the horsepower game. Been burned myself in the past.
It is, however, the installer in this instance that is taking the rather sizable financial hit by supplying and installing a functional engine in RIOT’s car. Regardless of the failure’s ultimate precipitating factors, it is EuroCharged that is making him whole. I commend and respect them for doing so.