Piggyback's
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Piggyback's
Okay so obviously search doesn't turn much up. What I'm more so looking for is anyone that has a bit more experience to the way the MAP sensor reacts to modifying it's signal.
In lieu of people going "huh" I'll give piggyback 101 starting with...
On the lowest level , being a simple MAP Clamp, I could see this providing a modest bump in timing. It's my understanding these cars run pretty rich on stock ECU tuning. Being a superchargers Manifold pressure should be pretty liner it makes a clamp all the more realistic. Since this is not a Turbo'ed application nor does our S/C run any type of bypass. again, just more the reason it should work nice. So in Theory lets say the stock S/C combo makes 14psi manifold pressure. The MAP sensor takes this and tells the ECU 14PSI. The ECU tosses the 14PSI into the timing table, Manifold Pressure being the key ingredient to timing, the ECU spits out ohh lets say 18 degrees timing advance. Well now we adjust the Clamp. for simplicity sake lets assume the stock boost of 14psi puts out say 2.5 volts from the MAP sensor. So we now clamp that Voltage with the MAP clamp to 2.4 volts which equals lets just say 13psi Manifold Pressure. ECU now sees only 13PSI although the S/C is actually putting out 14psi. Result is the ECU is now going to operate on a lower row of cells in both it's timing and Fuel trim maps. lower cells in the fuel trim map are going to lean the car out (simple understanding, less boost =less fuel). Again this should be fine to an extent based on the fact the car runs rich. Now the timing table on the other hand, the lower cells will result in a small bump in timing (again simple understanding, less boost, less cylinder pressure, more timing). So now we have effectively leaned the car out and provided more timing. both able to produce more power.
All this dependent on the MAP sensors ability to be fudged a little. I'm going to assume it CAN be done. One of the "Big Dogs" here on the forums has already admitted to using a "piggy back" to control his fuel but due to the hush hush mentality on this forum I haven't come across which piggy back exactly was used.
From a non mail order tune aspect this basically has the ability to offer mail order results for under 100$ on non upgraded pulley cars. Obviously adding a pulley which by nature is going to lean the car out (how much seams to be an ongoing debate) will bring in diminishing returns on a clamp. As far as a Mail Order tuned car goes, this provides the option to do some light "touch-up" work to your car's already tuned ECU. Also adds the potential to wick it up for race gas track visits.
Next in line would be stepping up to a Air Fuel Controller. SAFC-II/SAFC-Neo/Dtec. Basically upgrading from a liner clamp (map clamp) to a non liner/per RPM clamp. But I'm Hungry and it's lunch time. I'll dive in more when I get back. Again hopefully one of the people that has spent some time messing with the MAP sensor on this engine can chime in.
In lieu of people going "huh" I'll give piggyback 101 starting with...
On the lowest level , being a simple MAP Clamp, I could see this providing a modest bump in timing. It's my understanding these cars run pretty rich on stock ECU tuning. Being a superchargers Manifold pressure should be pretty liner it makes a clamp all the more realistic. Since this is not a Turbo'ed application nor does our S/C run any type of bypass. again, just more the reason it should work nice. So in Theory lets say the stock S/C combo makes 14psi manifold pressure. The MAP sensor takes this and tells the ECU 14PSI. The ECU tosses the 14PSI into the timing table, Manifold Pressure being the key ingredient to timing, the ECU spits out ohh lets say 18 degrees timing advance. Well now we adjust the Clamp. for simplicity sake lets assume the stock boost of 14psi puts out say 2.5 volts from the MAP sensor. So we now clamp that Voltage with the MAP clamp to 2.4 volts which equals lets just say 13psi Manifold Pressure. ECU now sees only 13PSI although the S/C is actually putting out 14psi. Result is the ECU is now going to operate on a lower row of cells in both it's timing and Fuel trim maps. lower cells in the fuel trim map are going to lean the car out (simple understanding, less boost =less fuel). Again this should be fine to an extent based on the fact the car runs rich. Now the timing table on the other hand, the lower cells will result in a small bump in timing (again simple understanding, less boost, less cylinder pressure, more timing). So now we have effectively leaned the car out and provided more timing. both able to produce more power.
All this dependent on the MAP sensors ability to be fudged a little. I'm going to assume it CAN be done. One of the "Big Dogs" here on the forums has already admitted to using a "piggy back" to control his fuel but due to the hush hush mentality on this forum I haven't come across which piggy back exactly was used.
From a non mail order tune aspect this basically has the ability to offer mail order results for under 100$ on non upgraded pulley cars. Obviously adding a pulley which by nature is going to lean the car out (how much seams to be an ongoing debate) will bring in diminishing returns on a clamp. As far as a Mail Order tuned car goes, this provides the option to do some light "touch-up" work to your car's already tuned ECU. Also adds the potential to wick it up for race gas track visits.
Next in line would be stepping up to a Air Fuel Controller. SAFC-II/SAFC-Neo/Dtec. Basically upgrading from a liner clamp (map clamp) to a non liner/per RPM clamp. But I'm Hungry and it's lunch time. I'll dive in more when I get back. Again hopefully one of the people that has spent some time messing with the MAP sensor on this engine can chime in.
Re: Piggyback's
I have used some of these guys products before, they work well:
http://www.splitsec.com/
This may work on the srt6, maybe give them a call to see what they say.
http://www.splitsec.com/products/timing.htm
http://www.splitsec.com/
This may work on the srt6, maybe give them a call to see what they say.
http://www.splitsec.com/products/timing.htm
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Re: Piggyback's
If your refering to my piggy back ( which I'm sure you are since I'm the only one with one that I know of ), I have absolutely nothing to hide or not share. I have talked to and tried to help dozens of people on this forum both on the forum and offline. I have had 15 + crossfires in my personal shop on several occasions working on their cars for FREE,just because I love these cars and most of these people ( not like that though) Maybe just ask me or pm me before assuming that i have secrets.My main computer has a Chip socket with some inmotion custom chips. I have 6 tunes that I can swap out, 87oct,93oct,100+oct,nitrous small shot,nitrous big shot, and the stock chip. My piggy back is pretty simple in theory and I can only vary fuel mixture, have never found a way to control anything else outside of that ie. timing . The ecu's on these cars just can't be completely overridden from my research, once you trick it,it will take it back,flip it, pull it, and if it's confused, go into limp mode. Thats why in my sig I put " small piggy back " It is connected to the map,tps,ecu and runs through a AEM tach adapter then a FJO proggresive controller that interupts signals and applys ground under certain conditions. I did not design or install by myself, so I'm not sure if I understand everything completely myself, I paid a lot of cash to a pure race shop to help me get this far with it and it's far from perfected,But I can make a 1/4 mile pass with or without n2o and not run lean. See ya and thanks for all the input, we all have a lot to learn about this car, and with all of these great minds maybe we can crack this computer someday ? !
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Re: Piggyback's
I'll assume it's simply just a "map clamp" that I discribed above. If your not directly tieing into the injectors and modifying the injectors pule with signal, and your not manipulating the actuall cells in the table, the only practical way to adjust the fuel is via modifying the MAP voltage signal. And you did say you are taped into the MAP sensor. Question is are you taped in to reference MAP Voltage or are you taped in to modify MAP Voltage? Easy way to know is is the MAP wire taped or spliced.
Again as I explained above, if you are modifying MAP Voltage to adjust fuel you are infact making slight timing changes. It's just a by product. I actually like to think of the timing as the main change and the fuel as the byproduct as the timing is the meat and potatoes.
You never did get back to me on what Jets you use, I'm curious to as how they scale together in relationship to other cars I've jeted on. It'll give me an idea anyway on how "out of fuel" this car really is in the 450+hp range. Obviously you have proven our fuel pump is not a problem. and injectors are a simple swap. The only question is is there a need or not for a true rising rate regulator and the need to adjust fuel pressure. I don't think so.
Again as I explained above, if you are modifying MAP Voltage to adjust fuel you are infact making slight timing changes. It's just a by product. I actually like to think of the timing as the main change and the fuel as the byproduct as the timing is the meat and potatoes.
You never did get back to me on what Jets you use, I'm curious to as how they scale together in relationship to other cars I've jeted on. It'll give me an idea anyway on how "out of fuel" this car really is in the 450+hp range. Obviously you have proven our fuel pump is not a problem. and injectors are a simple swap. The only question is is there a need or not for a true rising rate regulator and the need to adjust fuel pressure. I don't think so.
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Re: Piggyback's
Originally Posted by mrphotoman
That is indeed a MAP Clamp, exactly as i described above with 1 difference. On a turbo aplication the ECU will adjust it's boost levels through the ECU controlled Wastegate based off the feedback signal it gets from the MAP Sensor (In that case the TMAP which i assume just means "Turbo Manifold Absolute Pressure"). So in this case the Car boosts 14psi. Car hits 14psi, MAP (TMAP) signal is sent to the ECU that it's at 14psi. ECU then sends out a signal to the Wastegate to open and start dumpng exhaust gas around the turbine.
Now with the clamp they are probably more so rescaling the voltages, so say 14psi sends out a voltage equal to 12 psi, 16psi sends out a voltage more equal to 14psi ect. Now because of this the car will physically boost 16psi before the ECU sees the 14psi boost cutoff at which point it goes and opens the gate to control boost.
So on a turbo car they get the fuel, timing and boost level changes from a Clamp. This is a good and bad thing, good because more boost is more power, but bad because more boost is counterproductive with pulling fuel... So you have to find a happy medium. I don't doubt there claims of 40hp. I've tuned stock SRT-4's to +40hp with simple piggybacks.
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Re: Piggyback's
Originally Posted by mrphotoman
Ohhh kay, good find. Thats actually very very similar to the final installment I was going to get at. In the piggyback hierarchy the AEM Fuel/Ignition Controller is king in my opinion. The principle in that is simple, intercept crank and cam position and trick the car as to what the positions really are to thus modify the timing the car gives. I'll touch on it more, but basically the AEM FIC goes one step ahead of that box and also gives you full controll of Injector Pulse with. It also allows for clamping of up to 3 sensors. The AEM FIC is obviously the hardest to get to play nice with a hard core ECU, but I got it to work on the 2008/2009 Caliber SRT-4's so I'm confident it can work on a Crossfire.
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Re: Piggyback's
Originally Posted by XXxx_Totmacher_xxXX
Ohhh kay, good find. Thats actually very very similar to the final installment I was going to get at. In the piggyback hierarchy the AEM Fuel/Ignition Controller is king in my opinion. The principle in that is simple, intercept crank and cam position and trick the car as to what the positions really are to thus modify the timing the car gives. I'll touch on it more, but basically the AEM FIC goes one step ahead of that box and also gives you full controll of Injector Pulse with. It also allows for clamping of up to 3 sensors. The AEM FIC is obviously the hardest to get to play nice with a hard core ECU, but I got it to work on the 2008/2009 Caliber SRT-4's so I'm confident it can work on a Crossfire.
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Re: Piggyback's
Originally Posted by svo
I have a brand new HKS Super AFR and wondering if it would work on the the SRT
The HKS is actually discontinued. I don't use them, but it would work identical to the next step above a MAP Clamp, the Air Fuel Controllers. I've always stuck to the Apexi SAFC-II/Apexi SAFC-Neo/Dtec. And i believe the Dtec's are also being discontinued so for practicality I'll just reference a Apexi SAFC-II/Neo.
Monday I'll dig into the benafits of steping up from a MAP clamp to a Full Air Fuel Controller.
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Re: Piggyback's
Originally Posted by XXxx_Totmacher_xxXX
I'll assume it's simply just a "map clamp" that I discribed above. If your not directly tieing into the injectors and modifying the injectors pule with signal, and your not manipulating the actuall cells in the table, the only practical way to adjust the fuel is via modifying the MAP voltage signal. And you did say you are taped into the MAP sensor. Question is are you taped in to reference MAP Voltage or are you taped in to modify MAP Voltage? Easy way to know is is the MAP wire taped or spliced.
Again as I explained above, if you are modifying MAP Voltage to adjust fuel you are infact making slight timing changes. It's just a by product. I actually like to think of the timing as the main change and the fuel as the byproduct as the timing is the meat and potatoes.
You never did get back to me on what Jets you use, I'm curious to as how they scale together in relationship to other cars I've jeted on. It'll give me an idea anyway on how "out of fuel" this car really is in the 450+hp range. Obviously you have proven our fuel pump is not a problem. and injectors are a simple swap. The only question is is there a need or not for a true rising rate regulator and the need to adjust fuel pressure. I don't think so.
Again as I explained above, if you are modifying MAP Voltage to adjust fuel you are infact making slight timing changes. It's just a by product. I actually like to think of the timing as the main change and the fuel as the byproduct as the timing is the meat and potatoes.
You never did get back to me on what Jets you use, I'm curious to as how they scale together in relationship to other cars I've jeted on. It'll give me an idea anyway on how "out of fuel" this car really is in the 450+hp range. Obviously you have proven our fuel pump is not a problem. and injectors are a simple swap. The only question is is there a need or not for a true rising rate regulator and the need to adjust fuel pressure. I don't think so.
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Re: Piggyback's
posted for later reference.
POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE C2 - BLACK 24 WAY CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 - -
2 - -
3 - -
4 - -
5 - -
6 - -
7 20GY/WT (EXCEPT SRT) EGR SOLENOID CONTROL
8 - -
9 18BL/WT (SRT) GENERATOR CONTROL
10 - -
11 - -
12 18VT/WT COIL ON PLUG DRIVER NO. 5
13 20GY/BR AIR PUMP SWITCHOVER SOLENOID CONTROL
14 20DG/VT (EXCEPT SRT) SHORT RUNNER VALVE SOLENOID CONTROL
15 18BR/GY (EXCEPT SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 1/1 HEATER CONTROL
15 18BR/BK (SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 1/1 HEATER CONTROL
16 - -
17 - -
18 18GY/VT FUEL INJECTOR NO. 6 CONTROL
19 18GY/DG FUEL INJECTOR NO. 3 CONTROL
20 - -
21 18GY/YL FUEL INJECTOR NO. 5 CONTROL
22 18GY/RD FUEL INJECTOR NO. 2 CONTROL
23 - -
24 18BR/BK (EXCEPT SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 2/1 HEATER CONTROL
24 18BR/GY (SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 2/1 HEATER CONTROL
Powertrain Control Module C3 - Black 52 Way Cav Circuit Function
1 - -
2 20pk Camshaft Position Sensor Signal
3 20bk Sensor Ground
4 20vt Right Knock Sensor Signal
5 20dg/rd Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Signal
6 20dg Sensor Ground
7 20bk Oxygen Sensor 1/1 Signal
8 20yl/dg Iat Sensor Signal
9 20br/dg Sensor Ground
10 20rd/dg (except Srt) Map Sensor Signal
10 20rd/bk (srt) Map Sensor Signal
11 20yl/wt (except Srt) Maf Sensor Signal
12 20br (except Srt) Sensor Ground
13 20dg/wt Crankshaft Position Sensor Signal 1
14 - -
15 20gy/bl Oil Sensor Signal
16 20bk Sensor Ground
17 20yl Left Knock Sensor Signal
18 - -
19 20gy Sensor Ground
20 20wt Throttle Position Sensor Signal 2
21 20yl Throttle Position Sensor Signal 1
22 20vt 5 Volt Supply
23 20bk (except Srt) Oxygen Sensor 2/1 Signal
23 20bk/br (srt) Oxygen Sensor 2/1 Signal
24 - -
25 20br/yl (except Srt) 5 Volt Supply
26 20dg Crankshaft Position Sensor Signal 2
27 18gy/bk Fuel Injector No. 1 Control
28 18gy/bl Fuel Injector No. 4 Control
29 - -
30 - -
31 - -
32 - -
33 - -
34 - -
35 - -
36 - -
37 - -
38 - -
39 20rd/yl 5 Volt Supply
40 - -
41 - -
42 - -
43 - -
44 18gy Coil On Plug Driver No. 6
45 18dg Coil On Plug Driver No. 3
46 18bl Coil On Plug Driver No. 4
47 18bk Coil On Plug Driver No. 1
48 - -
49 18vt Coil On Plug Driver No. 5
50 18yl Coil On Plug Driver No. 2
51 - -
52 - -
POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE C2 - BLACK 24 WAY CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 - -
2 - -
3 - -
4 - -
5 - -
6 - -
7 20GY/WT (EXCEPT SRT) EGR SOLENOID CONTROL
8 - -
9 18BL/WT (SRT) GENERATOR CONTROL
10 - -
11 - -
12 18VT/WT COIL ON PLUG DRIVER NO. 5
13 20GY/BR AIR PUMP SWITCHOVER SOLENOID CONTROL
14 20DG/VT (EXCEPT SRT) SHORT RUNNER VALVE SOLENOID CONTROL
15 18BR/GY (EXCEPT SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 1/1 HEATER CONTROL
15 18BR/BK (SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 1/1 HEATER CONTROL
16 - -
17 - -
18 18GY/VT FUEL INJECTOR NO. 6 CONTROL
19 18GY/DG FUEL INJECTOR NO. 3 CONTROL
20 - -
21 18GY/YL FUEL INJECTOR NO. 5 CONTROL
22 18GY/RD FUEL INJECTOR NO. 2 CONTROL
23 - -
24 18BR/BK (EXCEPT SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 2/1 HEATER CONTROL
24 18BR/GY (SRT) OXYGEN SENSOR 2/1 HEATER CONTROL
Powertrain Control Module C3 - Black 52 Way Cav Circuit Function
1 - -
2 20pk Camshaft Position Sensor Signal
3 20bk Sensor Ground
4 20vt Right Knock Sensor Signal
5 20dg/rd Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Signal
6 20dg Sensor Ground
7 20bk Oxygen Sensor 1/1 Signal
8 20yl/dg Iat Sensor Signal
9 20br/dg Sensor Ground
10 20rd/dg (except Srt) Map Sensor Signal
10 20rd/bk (srt) Map Sensor Signal
11 20yl/wt (except Srt) Maf Sensor Signal
12 20br (except Srt) Sensor Ground
13 20dg/wt Crankshaft Position Sensor Signal 1
14 - -
15 20gy/bl Oil Sensor Signal
16 20bk Sensor Ground
17 20yl Left Knock Sensor Signal
18 - -
19 20gy Sensor Ground
20 20wt Throttle Position Sensor Signal 2
21 20yl Throttle Position Sensor Signal 1
22 20vt 5 Volt Supply
23 20bk (except Srt) Oxygen Sensor 2/1 Signal
23 20bk/br (srt) Oxygen Sensor 2/1 Signal
24 - -
25 20br/yl (except Srt) 5 Volt Supply
26 20dg Crankshaft Position Sensor Signal 2
27 18gy/bk Fuel Injector No. 1 Control
28 18gy/bl Fuel Injector No. 4 Control
29 - -
30 - -
31 - -
32 - -
33 - -
34 - -
35 - -
36 - -
37 - -
38 - -
39 20rd/yl 5 Volt Supply
40 - -
41 - -
42 - -
43 - -
44 18gy Coil On Plug Driver No. 6
45 18dg Coil On Plug Driver No. 3
46 18bl Coil On Plug Driver No. 4
47 18bk Coil On Plug Driver No. 1
48 - -
49 18vt Coil On Plug Driver No. 5
50 18yl Coil On Plug Driver No. 2
51 - -
52 - -
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Re: Piggyback's
The Camshaft Position Sensor is a hall effect type sensor (3 wire). The Camshaft Position Sensor is mounted on the front of the right cylinder head.
The Crankshaft Position Sensor is an inductive type sensor (2 wire). The Crankshaft Sensor is used to determine the crankshaft position and speed. The Crankshaft Position Sensor is mounted on the left rear of the cylinder block.
The Crankshaft Position Sensor is an inductive type sensor (2 wire). The Crankshaft Sensor is used to determine the crankshaft position and speed. The Crankshaft Position Sensor is mounted on the left rear of the cylinder block.
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Re: Piggyback's
Hey XXxx_Totmacher_xxXX,
This system was used on an older 6cyl E-Class benz that was fitted with twin turbos. The ECU was a Bosch ME 2.8. Ours is the 2.8.1 so I'm not sure what the actual differences are. This system, in theory, should get you what you are looking for. Independent control over fuel and timing. Let me know your thoughts on this one. Heck they even have a MB specific version to boot!
http://www.powermod.com.au/index-2.html
Post #529 and on for more info
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...roject-22.html
OT but your ID looks familiar, do you play COD World at War by chance? (PS3)
This system was used on an older 6cyl E-Class benz that was fitted with twin turbos. The ECU was a Bosch ME 2.8. Ours is the 2.8.1 so I'm not sure what the actual differences are. This system, in theory, should get you what you are looking for. Independent control over fuel and timing. Let me know your thoughts on this one. Heck they even have a MB specific version to boot!
http://www.powermod.com.au/index-2.html
Post #529 and on for more info
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...roject-22.html
OT but your ID looks familiar, do you play COD World at War by chance? (PS3)
Last edited by msheredy; 04-02-2009 at 01:38 PM.
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Re: Piggyback's
naw actually goes back like 10+ years to Ultima Online. Had a character named Totmacher, but Totmacher was a popular German phrase so it was taken on alot of forums, so back then being the like 16 year old kid I was used XXxx_Totmacher_xxXX since it looked cool. It's just kinda stuck with me since from message board to message board.
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Re: Piggyback's
the "powermod" looks to be a crude carbon copy of the AEM FI/C. My concern now after poking aorund on Dealer Connect is our Crank sensor is a 2 wire and not a HAL/MAG sensor. I don't believe the AEM FIC will operate with that sensor, but I'll look into it a bit more. but as I was getting at earlier the AEM FI/C would be a true 100% standalone piggy back with full fuel/timing control independent of eachother.
Where as a simple Air Fuel Controller I believe will offer the majority of the features and I'm almost positive will work flawlesly. Only problem is timing/fuel are not adjusted independently. but that can be worrked around and again would be great to stack on a Canned Tune.
I'm going to start with the simple map clamp though I think on a stock SRT-6 it should be worth substantial power on it's own. I got a friend getting one to me as we speak. As far as wiring it's simply power, ground and splicing the 1 MAP sensor wire. Super simple and effective. lean the car back out and add a few degres timing. I'll be conservative and say 15hp stock.
Where as a simple Air Fuel Controller I believe will offer the majority of the features and I'm almost positive will work flawlesly. Only problem is timing/fuel are not adjusted independently. but that can be worrked around and again would be great to stack on a Canned Tune.
I'm going to start with the simple map clamp though I think on a stock SRT-6 it should be worth substantial power on it's own. I got a friend getting one to me as we speak. As far as wiring it's simply power, ground and splicing the 1 MAP sensor wire. Super simple and effective. lean the car back out and add a few degres timing. I'll be conservative and say 15hp stock.
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