When running a map clamp i think monitoring afr will be even more crucial in engine safety. By fooling the MAP that we are running less boost when we are actually running more, ecu might not pull timing resulting in lean AFR plus timing=bad . Just a thought.

 

This is a fact! Thats why you got to have a controller tied to a wideband so it will shut you down when this happens. It has happened to me about 3 or 4 times at about the 1000' mark and thank god for the controller shutting me down, because it happens so fast you can't do anything about it, about 1/100 second i have jumped from 12.5 to 18.5 and climbing due to check engine light popping on( random misfire/overboost code usually) and freaking out the computer. At this point the controller lets the computer take back over and it usually would put me in limp mode and as soon as I got off the track, I could shut it down and start back up and it would be fine as soon as the computer would reset. So I'm not sure you can 100% override the system?!

 

obviously that is a valid point. but the reality is, is this any different then ordering a "canned tune" and running it with out a wideband?

Is said tunner going to "warranty" my motor on 91 octane with a 185 pulley, Needswings Manifolds, 3" exhaust in 95+ degree temps and his assumed to be safe tune? Fuck no, just like you can't expect safe results from ANY tuning without proper monitoring.

Again the changes made would be super small, say 18psi is 3.45 volts and 17psi is 3.25 volts. A small change to say 3.35 volts would be the starting point. And .5 psi boost is likely .25 degrees timing and "maybe" a 10th leaner AFR wise.

I can see where people that spent 850$+ for a mail order tune would be pissed that for the cost of a wideband and 60$ MAP clamp they could have had the same results. So I fully expect biased opinions to flow. It's sad that this simple technology has made more reliable HP on SRT-4's then any SRT-6 to date but it's knocked up as being unsafe.



Honestly the reason I'm not diving right into it is I have no desire to turn this car into what I know i could make it. Yes if i was going to do it right now I would take it to an exhaust shop, knock out the cat's, have a few O2 bungs welded in, install a Zeitronix, toss on a clamp, take it to the track, monitor stock MAP sensor voltage, do a few pulls, slowly dropping the clamped voltage and monitoring AFR's. Then i would post results and a safe clamp range, Toss in a SAFC-II and let the piggyback tuning commence.



As for knock I know this sounds bad saying this so don't let it reflect on my personal views of tuning, but if you manage to blow your motor from knock you got some serious problems well above ******* up a tune on a MAP clamp. these engines aren't stupid. they will go in limp mode on the slightest onset of what APPEARS to be knock (as MD just indirectly pointed out.) There likely isn't even knock, just the onset of what the ECU "thinks" is knock and the split second the ECU sees that it will yank that timing right to the basement, regardless of what the clamp is showing the ECU for boost.


Again I'm not disagreeing with the use of a wideband with a Clamp, but at the same time comparing using a wideband with a properly set clamp to a mail order tune is apples to apples. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

The main difference is how much do you trust your tuner? Some here trust them way too much. It doesn't matter even if you have no tune. If you have modded then you must datalog. Period. What good is an AFR gauge if there is no logging going on. Why do some think driving around is going to give them an accurate AFR reading. You need a good pull from 1st through mid 4th to get good reading. Dyno will be close but won't accurately recreate the car moving and pulling in the extra air.

 

Man, I wish you would figure this out so we could tune ourselves Ok, what if we slip you a few bills?! :P LOL

 

Actually besides your " red sled neon " I would be happy to take on any of the rest of your fleet and see if this is true ! I'm sure it isn't the freaking map clamp causing a doo doo neon to run 9 seconds! Maybe a giant turbo ? Maybe n2o ? I'm sure a map clamp is a beneficial tool, but not a miracle worker.

 

my neon went 11.4 @ 128 with simply the Mopar Stage 3, turbo back exhaust and a SAFC-II tuned by me (420hp). It would have gone much faster but I got kicked of MIR and VMP.

 

Just posted this today on the Caliber forums. Stock Caliber with just a turbo back exhaust, mopar Stage 1 ECU, larger intercooler running 19psi spike 16psi hold. Regardless of mods the 2 run files are before and aftr just installing the MAP/TIP Clamp.

 

30-40hp through the band by just tuning a 80$ clamp... And thats on a turbo car no less, much harder to tune a clamp on then a S/C car.

 

"doo doo neon" lol ohh wow thats classic, lets resort to ragging on it because it's "just a neon"

 

Your whole point is with a clamp a tune won't be needed and everyone is stupid for paying big bucks for a tune. Question#1 How is a clamp going to adjust the rev limiter? #2 How is a clamp going to remove the speed limiter? #3 How is a clamp going to adjust your fuel and timing maps through out the whole rpm range (without a pricey stand alone) and not just under max boost, there are many more examples, I'm not here to argue with you about this, you sound like a smart guy, but what applies to a neon isn't the answer for every other car. And about the " doo doo" comment, I would not buy a neon if they ran 2's in the qtr. just my opinion and yes I know they can be crazy fast, just not a fan of the look or a fwd in general. I think the srt6 is 10 times classier in every way !

 

I believe he was trying to say that a Map Clamp on a Neon has resulted in more HP on a Neon than any Aftermarket Part that has been introduced to our car. I can tell you from first hand experience that I've owned, driven, worked on and spent a great deal of the last 4-5 years in cars that XXxx_totmacher_xxXX has built. He is a smart guy, probably the smartest tuner I've personaly come across. If there is a way, I'm confident that he can figure it out. I've never seen a car(and I've seen and been around dozens) that he has tuned, not run significantly better. We have talked about this and compared notes extensivley over the last few weeks and ideas are still being bounched around about what route to take. As far as a vendor tune is concerned, I don't think most people are too concerned about the Speed Limiter and a couple hundred RPMS at the top end. I don't ever plan on exporing the boundaries of the stock limiter and what little you gain with a bumped up rev limited isn't worth the money of a custom tune if a $300 AFC can do most of the other tuning needed for a similar result. I'm very happy with my tune purchase and it has worked relatively well for me. However, if I had the personal ability to tweak it a bit more, that would be worth it for me. If an AFC or Map Clamp was a known option at the time, I may have gone that route.

As far as the the side comments taking place in this thread, there is no need for it. It doesn't matter what car he is using as a reference or example. He are talking about Crossfires that we own and all agree on. We are all here to improve the breed. Regardless of the platform, he knows his stuff and you can't deny the potential and results that have been exihibited from the FWD Four Bangers that you have such obvious contempt for. I've met you and I know you also know what you are talking about and I'm not taking anything away from that, but can't we explore these options without BS? Not everyone wants to go 10's. These experiments are how new things and ideas come to life.

 

Wow, if memory serves me right you were the slowest car or atleast near the bottom, at the track last year for the MIR battle of the pulleys !Have Mr. totmacher make you a clamp and I'll see you at this years 2009 battle of the pulleys, if thats not a fair deal I've never seen one! You've got a month and it's so simple right? OUR CAR IS NOT A NEON!

 

Why are you being so belligerent? There is no need to be that way. I'm being as polite and respectful as I can. Yes my car was running slow, but there were a few reasons for that that have since been corrected. My car has A LOT more miles on it(40,000+) than any other other car there that I know of and it just needed some maintenance and freshening up. It's running about how I think it should right now. I've haven't had it out on the 1/4 mile track yet this year, but I was able to pull down consistent 7.9-8.0s with 1.7 60s in the 1/8 about a month ago. If we can get a Map Clamp figured out and working, I'll be happy to try one out. Please park the attitude and try and add some constructive ideas. We all know you have the fastest one and know what you are talking about for the most part. You don't need put the rest of us down, you aren't special. You just have deeper pockets and your own shop to do the work.

 

Tot- venture out and think out of the box. That's great only one other was screaminjoe or his friend did the potentiometer trick and was getting great times in the 1/4. IIRC it was with a 178, but never posted here or even a clue what his AFR's were. You will find out what the MB guys have been fighting for years the ECU just doesn't allow much trickery. So far no one has broken the code to completely override the ECU. There has been some big deep pocket tuners trying and just are satisfied with what little can be done. The only similarities with the SRT4 and SRT6 are the first 3 letters. That's about it. Probably a cobalt and a neon have more in common. Still worth trying.

Neverenough- I think your taking MD's point in the wrong way. He's actually trying to save you and countless others from trying the next cheapest mod. Not that it might be the best bang for the buck, but also the most dangerous. If it indeeds tricks the motor to allow more boost and only fools the ecu for 1 sec, that may be all it needs to cause damage. Maybe nothing dramatic as putting a piston through the block, but possibly toss a CEL that tells the dealer your messing with voided warranty territory? Deep pockets allow to test with options, but still doesn't mean throw caution in the wind. We've seen it before with the pullies. Why develop a pulley to stack when there is no proven reliable safe results. Did that stop anyone from trying. Heck no. For $100 and 25hp you bet the list will be 40 deep. There are those that log and those that trust. The 40 deep will be the trusting. Code3 clients line up.

 

I think the adjustable map clamp is a great idea and that totmacher should research it to the fullest extent and post all the details and results for everyone to copy.

 

Perhaps the MAP clamp and a tune might go hand in hand?

Perhaps the forum doesn't need MD to save us all - unless he (or anyone else) can document specific failures that are being discussed in the thread.

Racing and performance is all about taking risks and pushing the boundries. After all, MD posted the best 1/4 mile time using a huge shot of nitrous. That's certainly not "proven reliable safe results" that won't void your warranty - but it was big, bold and it pushed the boundries...That's performance racing!!

How can we find "proven reliable safe results" if we don't try? After all staying stock and buying an extended warranty is still the safest proven result.

To date, I've never heard of anyone running too lean and damaging their Crossfire with any of the aftermarket products availible to us. Even with the 185mm pulley.

I 100% agree - - nothing ventured - nothing gained.

XXxx_totmatcher_xxXX - Take your knowledge and push the bounderies for our cars!!

 

See even the beyond rich use simple map clamps to get what they want. BTW his car is now making 650HP!

MD SRT take it back a few notches would ya? I always thought you were better then that. It's thinking like this that'll come back to haunt you when a Yugo wipes you up at the track. I'm just saying, humble yourself.

 

Brian- Maybe tot, md, insert name here, can afford replace a motor from testing. As you know there are more followers on here,(myself included), than leaders. So are you saying that until someone damages a motor any mod is safe to recommend? What about Rman's SC melting? Wasn't that with a 181 only?

I like Waldig's method of testing. Does it first, post results, then risk factor or worthiness.

Again your the only 185 with positive results on a srt6. Your SI tune may have something to do with it. Did you datalog on your mile runs recently in texas? If so can you post your AFR chart for the run?

 

well i had this huge response but deleted it. It's just not me.

I'll do what I do and you can do what you do.