Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by srtdrew
You guys may want to rethink that engine swap, lots of fun reading here that seems to have never made it to completion.
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...ad.php?t=18481
https://www.crossfireforum.org/forum...ad.php?t=18481
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBJQ_c3BzMM
On another non-engine-swapping note, I crunched some more numbers for the car, and our blower is outputting ~850CFM. I would say a 1000-1100CFM unit would be perfect. 1200CFM would be pushing it. It seems simple enough to swap out the blower for say a centrifugal unit such as the Paxton Novi 1200. On another note, the more and more I learn, the more I'm certain there are a lot of interchangeable parts between the E55 and C32/SRT6. I would say it looks like the blower is a direct bolt-on. Can anyone chime in here?
-D
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Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
The 3.2L power plant we have is more than capable of making ludicrous amounts of amounts of power our current blower is the only thing putting a cap on the output, an engine swap really isn't needed unless you just want a V8 to say you have one. some have run 150 shots of nitrous and 10.xx ET's on top of this blower the current internals are more than capable of handling a blower that can put out 450-500 hp. If our engine, transmission, and axles were way over built durabilty wise and no one has even hit the limits... that tells me we have alot more room to play 
.
As woody mentioned you can spend massive amounts of timeand money internally on the engine to gain more power but your limited to how much air comes out of that blower and enters the engine.
Personally after driving turbos cars, old style centrifuge/roots type blowers nothing compares to what a twin screw gives you feel and overall power band.
.As woody mentioned you can spend massive amounts of timeand money internally on the engine to gain more power but your limited to how much air comes out of that blower and enters the engine.
Personally after driving turbos cars, old style centrifuge/roots type blowers nothing compares to what a twin screw gives you feel and overall power band.
Last edited by ProjectMayhem; 01-21-2009 at 10:41 PM.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Just found this http://www.superchargersonline.com/p...WIP-WSC-140AXB
assuming that our supercharger is the same as a 1.6 supercharger then we have plenty of supercharger to make 664 hp. Also it says that 18,000 rpm is max rpm.
assuming that our supercharger is the same as a 1.6 supercharger then we have plenty of supercharger to make 664 hp. Also it says that 18,000 rpm is max rpm.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by Forza1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBJQ_c3BzMM
I would say it looks like the blower is a direct bolt-on. Can anyone chime in here?
I would say it looks like the blower is a direct bolt-on. Can anyone chime in here?
Dont thing i havent thought of this....
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
It looks like the mb guys have gone through this before. Anyone feel like summarizing?
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...then-c32s.html
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...then-c32s.html
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by srtdrew
It looks like the mb guys have gone through this before. Anyone feel like summarizing?
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...then-c32s.html
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c32-am...then-c32s.html
This disagreement was blown into epic proportions, Vandim at evosport brought banned members mom into the arguement. There were some talk about luke skywalker and the force (not really, but it sounded cool)
Then there was talk about poop and fertalizer and lighting the **** on fire. Someone then suggested to read a bunch of books (I think it was Lord of the Rings)
Finally someone brought turbos into the discussion and the bickering waned.
The end.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
I have glanced on the compressor map and can not determine the rpm scale, they dont seem to be marked, lines.
At a boost level of 20 psig I am figuring that we are at a pressure ratio of 20 / 14.7 or 1.36??? Some one wanna whoop up on my head ann edkate me. If it is 1.3+ thats low on the map. The atmosphere is 0.0 PSIG (14.7 PSIA = absolute)
On this curve which MAY be similar to ours stock speed is about two times the crank speed which is 1.6 L X 2 = 3.2 liters which is twice the amount of air going into the motor with no boost 0.0PSIG at the manifold.. We have 4 cycle engines that inhale every other rev, which is a intake of 1.6 liters (at 100% volumemetric efficiency). That would IDEALLY DOUBLE the pressure to 29.7 PSIA ABSOLUTE or 14.7 PSIG boost stock.. That seems to fit our stock conditions.
Questioning the church again, is our pressure ratio 1.3+ or is it higher ( like 2.36 ????????) I hate to get teckki but these things interrupt my string of whiskey sours / errr thoughts -with lots of cherries, fruit is good for you.
If I am at 1.36 : 1 then Iam really low on the map. If its 2.36 I am way off the high end of the map. I suspect that I dont know my ASP (A 178 joke ) from my Head ( cylinder) when it comes to this chart. Do I get any arguments or do I have concensus for once???????
If I say OK 20 PSIG is 34.7 PSIA then the ratio is 34.7 / 14.7 or 2.36 : 1 which is off the high end and relates to my red Herring ( red get it) guess above. Trying to extrapolating to 2.36 on the chart would again ASSUMING 15,000 s/c rpm correlate to the word "volume in the line Built in volume ratio =...." high up off the chart. 185's get 20 PSIG on other cars and at 6000RPM turn the pulley at 15,000 RPM on the s/c.
THis in WOODY speak would relate to a temperature of about 150 C which in my head is about 30 x 9 or 270 + 32 = 302 F degrees and above the desired range for Teflon. Forget the innercooler, it can handle the higher temps, think bigger delta T water to air inlet...
Yeah 302 is NOT THAT HOT but there are lots of centrifugal forces at 15,000 RPM that have to be considered. We will have a few learned people on here that can assist us with this chart and TEFLON cold flow properties. Were also pushing 50+ horsepower into the blower to do this which is about 150,000 BTU's of heat energy. Here the efficiency falls into play. THis heat is in addition to the heating of compression Adiabatic heating and raises the s/c temps ........in a word WOOOOaaagh thats a lot. I also get 56% efficiency on the chart.
At peak efficiency island on the chart the power in is About 17 HP, 110C or 212 degrees F OUT, I ASSUME and a pressure ration of 1.8 which works out ot be 26.46 PSIA or almost 12 PSIG boost. We are taxing this unit a lot and excluding the input pulley speed, were pushing the Dog doo out of this s/c. Over three times the HP load indicated at the charts SWEET spot.
SO many of us are going for 20 PSIG that well soon find out how much safety margin is built into this blower. AGAIN this is why is good to increase the inlet air density ( lower intake restriction, lower air temps both in and out, and lower restriction manifolds ) Better flow and air density will reduce the pressure at the outlet of the s/c needed, to achieve a given manifold pressure, more boost out with less HP needed and lower compression ratio = lower temps.
Work over , weekend, time to start date night #1.
Enjoy, Woody
EDIT: BTW 15 Meters cubic is less than 580 CFM, FYI
At a boost level of 20 psig I am figuring that we are at a pressure ratio of 20 / 14.7 or 1.36??? Some one wanna whoop up on my head ann edkate me. If it is 1.3+ thats low on the map. The atmosphere is 0.0 PSIG (14.7 PSIA = absolute)
On this curve which MAY be similar to ours stock speed is about two times the crank speed which is 1.6 L X 2 = 3.2 liters which is twice the amount of air going into the motor with no boost 0.0PSIG at the manifold.. We have 4 cycle engines that inhale every other rev, which is a intake of 1.6 liters (at 100% volumemetric efficiency). That would IDEALLY DOUBLE the pressure to 29.7 PSIA ABSOLUTE or 14.7 PSIG boost stock.. That seems to fit our stock conditions.
Questioning the church again, is our pressure ratio 1.3+ or is it higher ( like 2.36 ????????) I hate to get teckki but these things interrupt my string of whiskey sours / errr thoughts -with lots of cherries, fruit is good for you.
If I am at 1.36 : 1 then Iam really low on the map. If its 2.36 I am way off the high end of the map. I suspect that I dont know my ASP (A 178 joke ) from my Head ( cylinder) when it comes to this chart. Do I get any arguments or do I have concensus for once???????
If I say OK 20 PSIG is 34.7 PSIA then the ratio is 34.7 / 14.7 or 2.36 : 1 which is off the high end and relates to my red Herring ( red get it) guess above. Trying to extrapolating to 2.36 on the chart would again ASSUMING 15,000 s/c rpm correlate to the word "volume in the line Built in volume ratio =...." high up off the chart. 185's get 20 PSIG on other cars and at 6000RPM turn the pulley at 15,000 RPM on the s/c.
THis in WOODY speak would relate to a temperature of about 150 C which in my head is about 30 x 9 or 270 + 32 = 302 F degrees and above the desired range for Teflon. Forget the innercooler, it can handle the higher temps, think bigger delta T water to air inlet...
Yeah 302 is NOT THAT HOT but there are lots of centrifugal forces at 15,000 RPM that have to be considered. We will have a few learned people on here that can assist us with this chart and TEFLON cold flow properties. Were also pushing 50+ horsepower into the blower to do this which is about 150,000 BTU's of heat energy. Here the efficiency falls into play. THis heat is in addition to the heating of compression Adiabatic heating and raises the s/c temps ........in a word WOOOOaaagh thats a lot. I also get 56% efficiency on the chart.
At peak efficiency island on the chart the power in is About 17 HP, 110C or 212 degrees F OUT, I ASSUME and a pressure ration of 1.8 which works out ot be 26.46 PSIA or almost 12 PSIG boost. We are taxing this unit a lot and excluding the input pulley speed, were pushing the Dog doo out of this s/c. Over three times the HP load indicated at the charts SWEET spot.
SO many of us are going for 20 PSIG that well soon find out how much safety margin is built into this blower. AGAIN this is why is good to increase the inlet air density ( lower intake restriction, lower air temps both in and out, and lower restriction manifolds ) Better flow and air density will reduce the pressure at the outlet of the s/c needed, to achieve a given manifold pressure, more boost out with less HP needed and lower compression ratio = lower temps.
Work over , weekend, time to start date night #1.
Enjoy, Woody
EDIT: BTW 15 Meters cubic is less than 580 CFM, FYI
Last edited by waldig; 01-23-2009 at 02:59 PM.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by waldig
At a boost level of 20 psig I am figuring that we are at a pressure ratio of 20 / 14.7 or 1.36??? Some one wanna whoop up on my head ann edkate me. If it is 1.3+ thats low on the map.
at 20psig boost, you are at (14.7+20)/14.7 or a 2.36 pressure ratio.
Teflon decomposes at 260 degrees C. Lysholm engineers have been quoted as saying that the blades of a screw-type compressor will bend before anything else on a compressor fails. That's from Lysholm, I'm not sure what the guarantees on an IHI compressor are.
Regardless of air temperature, the volume airflow of the compressor is fixed. Low compressor efficiency means the resulting mass airflow decreases. 50% compressor effiency @ 20psig means 21 deg air is compressed to 165 deg C. This is computed using the formula of adiabatic air expansion.
In reality, this is probably a loss of anywhere from 20-30 hp, which is just a guesstimate based on a relatively inefficient intercooler (50%). If the intercooler were more efficient, then the actual loss due to temperature would be even lower.
My understanding: The lack of big numbers mostly comes from the fact that the compressor is undersized for operation at 20psi. If the compressor were sized to match, I'm sure 440+ at the wheels is possible.
Last edited by sonoronos; 01-23-2009 at 05:35 PM.
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Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by ammoman
Just found this http://www.superchargersonline.com/p...WIP-WSC-140AXB
assuming that our supercharger is the same as a 1.6 supercharger then we have plenty of supercharger to make 664 hp. Also it says that 18,000 rpm is max rpm.
assuming that our supercharger is the same as a 1.6 supercharger then we have plenty of supercharger to make 664 hp. Also it says that 18,000 rpm is max rpm.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by SLK32Germany
I have 178mmASP with 71mm machined down SC-Pulley which equals the 185mm. LET-HE and Johnson CM30, splitted IC-Reservoir and have ordered the upgraded IC(under the SC). I dont expect much better Peak-Intercooling under boost with the new IC, but better Recovery-Cooling when you let off the throttle. This is also important for me when I drive on the Autobahn. When my SC is removed from the engine during install of the new IC, I have planned some more little things to lower IATs . I will post the results.
By how much the air is cooled with the IC is difficult to say, because it depends on outside temperature, boost and the most important HOW LONG YOU STAY ON THE THROTTLE under boost. When I look at the diagrams I would estimate it is cooled down 50-60 Deg Celsius (120-140degF), when I compare it to my dataloggs.
The intercooling of our cars is only built for a short run to 250 km/h under full boost and then you drive 250 km/h with the throttle-body only "half way open". The car is at its limit only for a few seconds. For daily driving or 1/4 mile races (11-12 seconds full throttle) the Intercooling is good enough in my opinion.
Its difficult to say if the 178mm is better than the 185mm. I like the midrange punch of the 185mm VERY MUCH in daily driving. Maybe the 178mm is a little more efficient in the highest RPM. In my opinion it is a personal choice.
I am very interested in the Dyno-Results with the new Mid-Size C3-SC Pulley stacked with the 178mm. According to Code3 the results are very good, and it is worth for him to build a Mid-Size Version of th SC-Pulley...Good option for the 178mm owners or Marketing? We will see...
. I will post the results. By how much the air is cooled with the IC is difficult to say, because it depends on outside temperature, boost and the most important HOW LONG YOU STAY ON THE THROTTLE under boost. When I look at the diagrams I would estimate it is cooled down 50-60 Deg Celsius (120-140degF), when I compare it to my dataloggs.
The intercooling of our cars is only built for a short run to 250 km/h under full boost and then you drive 250 km/h with the throttle-body only "half way open". The car is at its limit only for a few seconds. For daily driving or 1/4 mile races (11-12 seconds full throttle) the Intercooling is good enough in my opinion.
Its difficult to say if the 178mm is better than the 185mm. I like the midrange punch of the 185mm VERY MUCH in daily driving. Maybe the 178mm is a little more efficient in the highest RPM. In my opinion it is a personal choice.
I am very interested in the Dyno-Results with the new Mid-Size C3-SC Pulley stacked with the 178mm. According to Code3 the results are very good, and it is worth for him to build a Mid-Size Version of th SC-Pulley...Good option for the 178mm owners or Marketing? We will see...
Hi, lot of good reading on this thread. How much did it cost you to machine down your sc pulley? Would it be possible to machine down a code3 pulley from 65mm to 62mm?
I would rather just machine down the pulley rather then get a crank pulley since i already have a code3.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by TemjinX2
Hi, lot of good reading on this thread. How much did it cost you to machine down your sc pulley? Would it be possible to machine down a code3 pulley from 65mm to 62mm?
I would rather just machine down the pulley rather then get a crank pulley since i already have a code3.
I would rather just machine down the pulley rather then get a crank pulley since i already have a code3.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by Mr. Max
That is a great question! I hope someone answers that and I hope they include their perspective on possible belt slippage with that modification and what could be done about it.
Re: Of Long Posts and Superchargers...
Originally Posted by TemjinX2
Hi, lot of good reading on this thread. How much did it cost you to machine down your sc pulley? Would it be possible to machine down a code3 pulley from 65mm to 62mm?
I would rather just machine down the pulley rather then get a crank pulley since i already have a code3.
I would rather just machine down the pulley rather then get a crank pulley since i already have a code3.
Last edited by SLK32Germany; 09-27-2009 at 07:00 AM.