Just curious Mr. Polaroid, but how much did you have to spend to upgrade that Asian FWDriver to hold up to the turbo.
Its not always about money.lol

 

Well mr dnr the last time I checked my srt6 was not FWD or Asian or turbo and if you are inquiring about my old tib it was not turbo either. I did spend around $2400 on the supercharger, pulleys and fuel tuner which isnt bad at all and I sold the car for almost what I paid for it 5 years later. Any more questions?

How fast does your crossfire run in the 1/4 mile? My old tib runs high 12's now and is a daily driver.

 

Drag racing is for guys who cant drive as far as Im concerned, (especially with a automatic)lol but what ever turns you on my friend.
Sounds like you lucked out when you found somebody to buy your Tib, around here they have about as bad a resale as a Crossfire.
I just couldnt figure out why anybody but a tuner boy would ever spend any money to mod a tib that's all. But I suppose we work with what we got.
So if somebody wants to throw money at a NA car, who can say anything. After all, its their money.

 

when the forum is clogged with threads about people bitching about how they can't get what they're asking for their car, or how they've spent x amount of money and they can't get it to work, you'll know why.

 

Seriously?!

 

lmao, sounds like I struck a nerve with the little guy.

So what type of racing does a pro driver like yourself do exactly? What mods do you have on your bad @ss machine? I bet it is sweet

Was that you I seen on SPEED TV last night? If you do not mind, can you PM me some driving tips? Hopefully one day I can be as great as you lmao.

 

Seriously? A crossfire owner says this? Chrysler did a great job with what is argueably a mediocre previous generation SLK platform. But there's a reason why crossfire's just sat on lots. There's a reason why chrysler is giving 13k+ off of 2008 models. I drove a z4 coupe a week ago and got to flog it quite a bit. If I didn't get such a deal on the crossfire, the Z4 coupe would have been a much better choice.

A crossfire is a very good vehicle, but unfortunately, it's also a vehicle that is often mentioned as more of a value for the money than simply a really solid performing vehicle. The srt6 did a bit better, but most reviews suggest that the strong motor and fat tires were responsible for great performance--no crossfire has really ever been considered a true drivers car. If you aren't sure what that means, drive a boxster or z4 coupe. They both FEEL more connected in every respect.

So guy, get off your high horse on the superiority of the crossfire, because in some ways, the crossfire is the tiburon of sports cars. Would anyone here honestly pay sticker for a crossfire?

 

Before this thread starts degenerating (of course, I've done my share of degenerating, but I'm not trying to pontificate here )

I think it's difficult to understand, for most people, the appeal in upgrading a car. But the problem really has little to do with personal wealth (is it possible to spend 10k upgrading a Porsche 911 to a Porsche 911 Turbo? Is it preferable to do so compared to spending 10k to upgrade a Acura Integra to make as much power as Porsche 911 Turbo?) - in my opinion, it has more to do with objectives and goals.

The reason why buying an SRT6 is an effective argument is because it answers a specific question - how do I get a Crossfire with 350 hp?

But that question is not the same question that everyone is asking. I gave the RUF example because of the RUF CTR:



A car which was NOT based on the Porsche 930 (the original "Turbo") but actually was a Group-C homologation car based on the NA car.

So, although we have to reach into the bag of "car enthusiast history" to get the significance, it turns out that there is precedence to altering the NA version of a car to produce more power than the factory forced-induction version of the car.

Note, also, that the original RUF CTR was pushing 470hp in a 2600lb car, as opposed to the original 930, which was rated up to 330hp.

So, in my opinion, there is room to develop something with technical merit, as opposed to simply satisfying a desire for more power. It really is one thing (and to whoever is willing to pay the money, an important thing) to be able to increase the power of a car to some arbitrary number. But let's face it - the ultimate end of such a pursuit is, as other people have noticed, a lesson in the cruelty of economics. Namely, nobody really considers such a thing a "worthy achievement" because the pursuit seems easy. It's the reason why bolt-on tuning pays so few economic dividends.

The difference between bolt-on power and the Crossfire equivalent of a RUF CTR is that in the latter case, something new is being created. Now, how much of a car must be changed before it is a completely different animal? I would venture to say that the historical meter for what constitutes a title change is motorsport participation. Namely, motorsport homologation. But barring that, the next step is to design a modification from the ground up so that its intended purpose is clear - not just a "tuned original" but a "transformed original".

People have to feel like what they are getting is a well-planned, well-executed program. Whether that is any different, practically, from some guy in a garage is irrelevant.

 

Sonoros,

I always love your stuff but, "motorsport homologation"?


Does your mother know you talk like that?



roadsster with a stick

 

I think I agree with you here. However, tuners know the price of the cars involved and price their upgrades accordingly. This is why a software upgrades on a 2.0t GTI costs ~500.00 and a software upgrade (not a piggy back) on a BMW 135 costs ~1500.00. So the tuners do take into account some level of personal wealth based on the amount of wealth it takes to buy the base car. What it comes down to is the personal interest in the particular car. Lots of people (people=car enthusiast) understand this concept to some degree. For some, spending 60k on a 600hp HPA boosted VW R32 that will give any NA Porsche a run for it's money, and is still very practical, is THE way to go. Others of course, would rather just have a 911 or cayman S. It all depends on the criteria. I like the crossfire, but it has, IMO, well defined weak points. The suspension isn't as precise as it could be, the steering is a bit unprecise, and the motor needs at least 50 hp. For some, especially, on this forum, they would just opt for the SRT6. Not a bad choice, in general. Some of us, myself included, like the idea of starting with what amounts to a blank sheet and making the car exactly how we want it. An SRT6 takes care of the motor, but really, that's it. To me, I would rather spend the money on an aftermarket suspension, adjust the wheel/tire setup, and a decent forced induction setup than spend the money on an srt6. Unless the SRT6 answered all the issues I have with the basic crossfire, I don't see it as a good alternative, at least for me.

To be honest, I don't really agree.




I would like to know your source for this. I have the Faszination Plus: RUF Story that talks about the yellowbird (which you are talking about) and mentions nothing about this. Also, RUF doesn't make racecars. I specifically asked the representative if they would build me a race prepped car, and they told me it was only under very special circumstances. So, please let me know where you get this info. While the cars may have used group C rules for the development, I've seen no evidence they were actually raced.


What is technical merit? And why would anyone care? A turbo powered car will feel much different than a s/c SRT6. That alone will give a turbo crossfire a bit of an advantage for some. What we need, simply, is an affordable solution for the na cars and I think a turbo will give the best bang for the buck. I would love to see what kind of output the na crossfire yields with an 8 psi turbo and work from there. I mean if injectors and an ECU tune gives these cars 250-260 hp, then I would be willing to bet that 8psi, injectors, (maybe a bigger maf housing depending on how it reacts to boost), and a proper ecu tune, can give at least 330 hp. To me, that would be something worthy of technical merit. In some instances, technical merit isn't always defined as the maximum power that you can get, but how little you can put in versus how much you can get out. Look at the V8 guys---5 lbs of boost gives huge results in some cases!

I feel like I have no idea what you really want for a NA crossfire with forced induction. I also get the impression that if the car doesn't make some predetermined amount of power, there's no point. I think there are significant problems with this feeling. The biggest, as you point out, is the SRT6. The car is already built for forced induction. If you want to build a monster, why not just start there. Heck, it's not uncommon for people in other circles to switch out a blower and use a turbo instead. The SRT6 motor would be almost limitless at that point. On the flip side, if you are that interested in a monster kit and supposedly it's not an issue of economics, why haven't you built this monster crossfire. In some respects, it's much easier. Tear the motor down, replace the internals with all forged parts, reinforce the cylinders, add pistons with a lower CR, do some headwork, get a big turbo, have all the hardware custom made, and add standalone (megasquirt, or something more complicated like DTA). And wa-la, you have a crossfire making lots of power. Or are you suggesting that 500hp "kits" should be made? The problem with that idea is that over a certain hp, likely well below 500hp, the stock management becomes a hinderance. So to be honest, the best way to go, is for a medium level of power for a decent price. A poor flowing, archaic 2.8L 12v VR6 motor on 10 psi is making just about 300hp at the crank--this also includes a proper exhaust and intake. I would guess that a 10psi turbo on the crossfire motor would give quite a bit over 300hp and likely over 330hp. Give me 340hp on a practically bolt on turbo for 6k and why would I even want an SRT6? Unlike an SRT6, once I have the turbo the ability to upgrade is almost limitless and based only by turbo size and the engine. With a blower you can only go so small with a pulley. So this mild setup can later be adapted for those, like you, who seem to want lots more power, while allowing those who are fine with a more mild setup with what they want. Not sure why this is a bad idea?

Well the difference is that the guy in the garage likely is going to be less precise about things. There is also very little accountability for the guy in the garage. And what about those people who live in CA? Is there any chance that the guy in the garage is even going to attempt CARB certification, for example? Things are so much better organized than what you get from some guy in his garage. Sometimes you get what you pay for and in the case of aftermarket boost, this is often the case. I've been there when I added boost to my own car. It took quite some time to find a reliable source of fueling/ECU tuning. The basic issues are no different in the case of the crossfire. I feel like very very few people in this thread have any experience with aftermarket boost of any kind.

 

What I've been trying to say...

 

But you're also suggesting the use of the STS kit--their universal kit. I see that being very problematic. I saw the Horsepower TV build of the vette with the setup and it was cool, for sure. Have you had the crossfire on a life and looked underneath? A universal kit is going to require a ton of modifications to work. The other issue is daily driveability. This kit is fine if your crossfire is a garage queen and only take it out on nice days, like many many vette owners, but if you don't do this (I don't) I don't trust the sts setup in the wet or if your car is even lower than stock and drive over bumpy roads. And lastly, who does the ECU tune for the universal kit? What does it consist of? Is it just a splitfire kit and that's it? Why does no one realize that tuning is the most important part of aftermarket forced induction? This is where ALL the money goes for big name kits. Anything you add to a car needs to work close to OEM. THis can be done, but it requires quite a bit of time.

Also, for those who have had the STS kit please tell me more about the lack of turbo lag? I also have reservations. What rpm do these kits register boost? The one thing to remember is that V8s don't need much low end, since they all have it. So if boost doesn't come on until 3k rpms or higher, would you really notice that in a vette that already has predigious torque right out of the box?

 

I meant to say that as a response to people who recommend "buying an SRT6" as whenever people want to turbo/supercharge their NA Crossfires. I think we are in agreement here because I don't think that's a good argument all the time (nor is it a bad argument.) It just answers a presupposition.

Actually, this was the point I was making - the group C rules (and components) were used to build the car. I did not mean to imply that the RUF CTR was actually raced formally.

More to the point, however, would it have the same legendary place in history if they simply built it to some arbitrary spec? That's the question I'm asking.

Yes, I understand your point that technical merit is subjective.

Sorry if I am not being clear, but I am certainly not saying that there's no point to doing this or that. I'm really not. I'm saying the exact opposite. What I'm saying is that there has to be a point.

It's not a bad idea?

I think that really depends on what kind of garage and what kind of guy we're talking about here. The real question is not on the size of the operation, but whether or not the work can be done to spec.

It just brings me back to my point - if you're looking for a bolt-on tuning kit, what's the ultimate economic end? This isn't a DARPA program. It's "Corky Bell in a Box." It's going to be Chinese steel with an ebay Chi-Com turbo, an integral wastegate, an FMU and MAF fooler. Scary, I know.

Then there's people who say, "well, I've got a standalone with bigger injectors as opposed to your foolhardy FMU. I've got stainless steel vs mild steel. I'm using a Garrett twin ball-bearing unit instead of that journal-bearing turbo." There's value in that. There's real value to "doing it right." but the question I'm asking is, what makes such a thing significant.

That's probably true, but there are also people that do have experience.

 

Indeed.



I think you are seeing things from a different place than myself. The spec that should be worked towards is to maintain as best as possible factory reliability, no knock, limited, if any timing retard, optimal AF ratios for a FI car, and that it is compliant with OBDII sensors, so it will pass inspection in most places. If you are talking about a big money company, CARB exemption should be attempted. All of this while adding 80+hp (and I suspect it will be quite a bit more with a turbo) and minimal
internal mods. Oh, and the car needs to be streetable. These are the parameters that need to be acheived in order to make a streetable kit.




And that's my question. What is the point, to you.



You mention this vague concept of "spec". What the hell does this mean when you use it? Spec? There doesn't need to be any spec. The setup needs to be streetable, offer some value, and be generally reliable. I am coming directly from the trials and tribulations of the na VW community where it is VERY common to put a turbo on these cars. I am sure the same mindset goes on with the honda community as well. In order to address an issue, you need to define it.

Now that's not necessarily true at all. Really, it's not. For 6k I can buy a turbo kit for 320hp or more for a VW R32 that uses qualilty parts and offers a warranty on such parts. Why would it have to be different for the crossfire? I guess the more important part is why anyone would put crap on their car? Where are you getting your assumptions about ECUs, FMUs, and MAFs? The biggest problem with ECU tuning is figuring out the coding and what it means. This has already been done since there are NA chips available for the crossfire. Heck, in Chuck Norris' thread, TVT offered to help him tune the car. If I recall correctly, he seemed to turn that down. I have no idea why, unless CN knows the code and has a code reader. This isn't that big of a deal provided you have the right equipment and knowledgeable people. I've seen it happen from the ground up in the VW world. C2 motorsports came out of no where 2 years ago in the VW world because one guy knew how to tune Honda's and realized there was a very good market for quality ECU tuning in the VW world. This can easily happen in the crossfire world. Heck, it could protentially be an option not only for the crossfire, but any benz with the previous gen 3.2L motor, thus offsetting costs further by making it available to a bigger market.

See you have things all sort of jumbled here. Some of what you are talking about is correct. But the type of turbo really isn't an issue for a 350hp setup. You need something that is reliable for your application. You may not need top of the line turbo technology for that. This is where a tuner with some R&D experience comes in. Let's make this even simpler, when you are talking about ECU/fueling options, there are very real differences in things. The FMU is basically an analogue unit. It reacts to boost and gives more pressure/fuel to the injectors under boost. But that's the only parameter it considers. It's a bit like adding a carburator to your fuel injected system. The ECU tune, will allow the ECU to take into consideration the additional air flow by matching MAF voltage with fuel output very precisely--along with ALL of the other parameters and ECU takes into account. And if a certain boost level maxes out the MAF, the VW world uses a larger MAF housing to fool the ECU--very elegant physics actually, since the bigger diameter housing will cause the air flow past the wire to be slower than it would be for a stock setup at the same boost. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Ideas from other parts of tuning world should be considered when taking on a new project. This is all stuff that is best done by a tuning company who has the equipment and knowledge. Most, but not all, guys working on their own (the C2 guys I mentioned earlier started kind of in their own garages, but they knew the ECU code backwards and forwards) don't have the capability to make these measurements.



If that is case, what's the hold up? Let's get something moving along. This thread has briefly outlined the considerations. Make a kit that will fit not only the crossfire, but also all C-class (the E class also had this motor, correct?) and SLK versions with the 3.2L and things could work out well for creating a decently priced kit. And boom, we;re ALL off to the races, quite literally!

 

AllEuro, I think you are very optimistic about things! Maybe that is good. It shows that you are excited about the idea. I also have a feeling from your post that you have some larger agenda, perhaps something along the lines of "energizing" the Crossfire community to start doing something like the VW community.

But I really encourage you to study the cases where the Benz tuners have already created viable supercharger and turbo setups, such as HOP. Do a search for a post containing "jizzed my panties" by Maxwell. I'm not kidding.

My point is simple. Do what hasn't already been done. Do it better and/or cheaper.

 

So I am assuming you meant the thread about the vortech blower? That's what I found when I searched the term you mentioned. That was actually a pretty good thread with some interesting information. The setup on my VW is similar to what is being discussed in that thread. My car also runs Bosch motronic fuel injection (I forgot offhand which version), which to me suggests that there HAS to be some similarities between what is going on with the motors in both cars. In any event I have a centrifugal supercharger similar to the vortech unit, I have a walbro inline fuel pump, my the ECU has been flashed to adjust timing appropriately, I have a Begi FMU, and stock injectors. But I have also done quite a bit of research as to the problems my VW has with more boost as well as the problems associated with my own setup. These problems should be considered in a motor that is A) run on cars with similar fuel architecture B) cars where the stock fuel injector size is a limiting factor. My setup is considered an old school setup. In the VW world, all OBDII cars (for the VR6) are software tuned to handle fuel and timing (again, all VW VR6s use Bosch motronic fuel injection), bigger injectors, and bigger maf housing. This type of setup is designed for maintaining ideal AF ratios and maintaining the health of the motor from a fueling standpoint. At 10psi, it is recommended for the Vr6 that one use 30lbs injectors as opposed to the stock 20lbs size. Just because your injectors may flow it, doesn't mean it's safe. I;m maxing out my injectors in the VR6 using an FMU. Luckily, I don't hit 10psi until just before redline. In a turbo, you don't have this. It's full boost from 3500 (for example) all the way to redline, so you need to have your fueling spot on.

There's a lot of just poking around in the thread you suggested I look at. Lots of custom stuff that to me either left out the important stuff (like AF ratio) or it was never measured. I would approach a 3.2L 18v obdII bosch motronic motor the same way I would approach similar setups from other brands. A very conservative, almost scientific approach will yield the best results in the end. Such an approach will ensure that the differences between the various motors are identified and enough time is given to addressing them.

I am very optimistic about things. We are not talking about a Lambo, Porsche, or Ferrari here. This is a very basic mercedes motor that uses absolutely no exotic technology. All it takes is one person or group to really sit down and put their heads together. I suspect the real issue isn't that no one knows how to do this, but the market realities of it all. As a group, it seems like Benz owners and even crossfire owners are not as eager to embrace significant aftermarket boost options as VW, honda, Evo, subaru owners, as examples. Heck even BMW and Porsche owners get down with aftermarket boost! With no (or little) return on investment, why would those who know the correct info waste their time? I think the only hinderance is merely an economic one. And as a result, all you see are a handful of owners with huge cash who go out and build one-off cars with absolutely no R&D to really fall back on in order to see what works and what doesn't. So not only do they pay a ton to get something custom, but their cars are rolling guinea pigs. And so the pattern will continue, until it seems the market changes. The crossfire is a car that could set off the resurgence IMO. It's a fantastic basic car! The suspension design is beautiful and who can argue with a chassis stiffer than a 911? Yet the car has poor resale because it was marketed wrong and a bit weak when it comes to OEM specs. As the cars get cheaper and more kids (or older people with disposable income who want something to tinker with) start to see these cars as legit options, FI options will start to get more popular. I bet in 3-4 years, some very promising stuff will be out.

I'm sort of tempted to ask the C2 guys what their thoughts would be on expanding into the crossfire/MB 3.2L market. They would have the tuning down, but I suspect the issue would be getting the hardware to mount the turbo.

Just some of my musing, hope you don't mind!

 

Maybe this has been covered and I missed it.
I was thinking of a tuning solution for the na gone turbo.
I spent a little time going through the wiring diagrams and it seems like the harnesses are very similar, except for a few locations between the srt6 and the na, so why couldn't you just -

Use the srt6 ecu &
Use the srt6 injectors

to net a workable tune that's integrated for complete vehicle system operation?

Am I smoking buds here?

 

It sounds like you have a hand in VW's Euro? I agree with alot of what you said there and believe that the Crossfire is just an aftermarket waiting to happen. (Not 3-4 years away but more like 1-2) The car is a very solid platform to build on and a good 7-8 lbs of boost turbo set-up would turn a low 15 high 14 car into a low 13 second car with alot of room for improvement. Like you said though it has to be something that works well with our stock ecu and could be a daily driver with no trouble. Tuning would be the real issue I think there. fabbing the kit would only be a matter of sitting down and figuring out the best plumbing option for it. It doesnt have to be there monster kit that puts out 500 horse, many people don't want or need that but would like to be more respectable. (Turbos give you this option) Gene Berg an old school VW guy had the same way of thinking make stock cars faster by improving on stock design, making it stronger yet faster but built it to last. On a side note that guy in the garage may provide a good base plan for a working set-up to be improved upon later, it may not be polished at first but then you bring in a tuner and make adjustments after R&D and it's a production piece.

There's an old saying Fast, Reliable, Cheap choose two.
Fast and Reliable it aint gonna be cheap.
Cheap and Reliable it aint gonna be fast.
Fast and cheap it aint gonna be reliable.

 

I agree with the tuning aspect of this issue. Hardware and packaging is a mechanical problem. Albeit sometimes difficult but not nearly as tricky an issue as tuning the thing. Many and I mean many hours on the dyno. Apexi makes my ECU for my 93 RX7TT, maybe getting a company that has many years of experience to look at this might be interesting. I think forced Induction for the NA crowd is definately worth doing. I have an NA roadster ad an SRT6 coupe. The NA certainly needs more power for me.

 

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