From the Crossfire road tests I've read, I know that you can turn the nanny-like ASP ("automatic stability program") off, but I'm unclear about the extent to which the function is actually excised, or how the system goes about "re-arming" itself.

After clicking the off button, when and how does the system reactivate? When the car is restarted, when you engage the brakes, or everytime you come to a full stop?

Of course, one of the appeals of a close-coupled rear wheel drive coupe is the ability to balance the car in corners on the throttle (and the occasional hooligan fishtailing. There wouldn't be much advantage over front wheel drive, however, if the system reined you in every time you started having a little fun.

Rob Gold
Royal oak, MI

 

It's a little hard to explain, the best way is to give you a real life example of my experiences at the track.

The system is active, I'm taking turn one at 70 mph, the light starts flashing and I feel the system start to engage pulling me off the turning line and wanting to straighten the car making me fight against the car to keep the car on the line and power thru the corner.

The system is deactivated, I take turn one at 70 mph and power through the turn with a slight drift and follow the line perfectly.

The system is deactivated, I take turn one at 80 mph pushing the car a little bit harder thru the same turn and the system activates itself and tries to straighten the car, making me fight the system and also slowing the car again.

So basically, with the system active, it comes online immediately when it senses any traction loss. With the system deactivated it comes online when it senses serious traction loss. It will always re-activate itself when you start the car, so you have to turn it off everytime you want it off.

It's actually quite a slick system when you need it and a pain in the A$$ when you don't.

 

Well, damn! I wonder how much of this is the engineers' doing and how much is the lawyers'?

Are there any "work-arounds" to modify this behavior, or is this integrated so deeply into the system that no amount of owner-level fiddling can fix it?

I understand that the SRT6 has different settings for its ASP, allowing the driver a bit more fun before the nanny slaps your wrist.

Rob Gold
Royal Oak, MI

 

The SRT6 is the same...

Since my car is going through a total re-build for the track, we're trying to find out how to delete the system completely. But it's a mess of wiring looms and circuits that all have to be checked.

 

It has been written by several auto enthusiast writers that the ESP *is* different in the SRT (and there are a lot more than just these three):

From "Automobile.com":
The ESP skid-control system has been recalibrated (in the SRT compared to non SRT) to be less intrusive, although there is always an electronic safety net.

From "Car Pages (at UK motoring.com)"
"To handle the extra power, the Crossfire SRT-6 has performance-tuned ride and handling and an upgraded five-speed automatic transmission. The Electronic Stability Program (ESP) has also been tuned for more spirited driving".

From "Auto 123.com"
"The ESP system is toned down a little on the SRT6 to allow for some spirited driving. It doesn't try and correct your every move as you make it, but rather waits a split second to see if you are planning on trying anything risky before applying the brakes and cutting engine power."

I have had both Crossfires, but since I do not drive my vehicles hard, I have no idea if the ESP's really are different or not. It could just be a press release that all the writers are keying off on that *stated* they are different, but sometimes you have to take a corporate press release with a grain of salt.

And if they really are different, I have no idea how you could get the SRT's ESP into a non SRT.

Anyway, the ESP's are reported to be different, and that is the point I am trying to make.

 

I think removing the accelerometer module might do the trick - it’s behind the console somewhere. If it can't detect lateral G then it can't apply any correction.

The 'off' position only affects the torque limiting part of the system, the system will still cut in under braking to distribute the braking force across the four wheels. With the system off you can actually power slide in the wet by applying excess power smoothly (the dash light still flashes, but the throttle doesn't get backed off as it does with the system switched on) In the dry there is so much grip that just lifting slightly after 'a bit of a moment' usually restores grip pretty much immediately after a couple of 'tail wags' without the system cutting in anyway. There's no mistaking the system when it cuts in. If you deliberately (or otherwise!) get a 'tank slapper' going at 80+ you feel each individual wheel tugging as the brakes are applied to each wheel.

 

I'll buy that... Hadn't heard that there was a difference...

 

Hi everyone! I am new to the forum. I experienced what Woody was talking about after coming out of the "Bus Stop" upon entering the back straight at the California Motor Speedway during a "driving school".

A friend had just run my SRT6 around the track at insane speeds with the ESP off. When I climbed in I did not pay attention to the fact that it was off and after an uneventful warm up lap, I hit the accelerator hard coming out of the "bus stop". The car immediately went into a slide. I started to correct, wound up overcorrecting and suddenly the back end grabbed the pavement like it was hugging a long lost love. The car "snapped" straight as an arrow and I was on my way down the track at full tilt. Unfortunately, the two cars behind me were still spinning as I pulled away.

BTW, I traded in a '04 Z4 2.5 on the SRT6 coupe back in January. Huntington Beach Chrysler ran an internet add posting a "used" 1 year old 2005 black SRT6 with 670 miles for $28,800. Checked it out on Carfax. Turned out it was a Chrysler press pool car. The car came with an upgraded 8 yr warranty and had the only two options available, Navigation and all season PS2s. I do miss the open air Z car every so often, until I press down with the right foot. I currently have a permanent smile on my face and no longer feel embarrassed by the rice rockets going down the straight on track days.

 

Let me guess, it's a black car and you were running with REDLINE TRACK EVENTS about three months ago.

PS: welcome to the forum... And I hate that infield road course especially turn #3.

 

You got it!

I like the track only 'cause it is 20 min from my house.

Went to see the Porsches run today on the "Roval" at the CMS...scary fast.

Looking forward to seeing my toy's little brother run against the big boys. Let us know when you will be running again.

 

How funny is that... I knew there was a Crossfire that ran with them on Saturday because I ran with them the next day and Aaron Bitterman was freaked out that they actually had another Crossfire running and was telling me all about it...

I was asked to run this weekend at the POC tribute to Le Mans with the Crossfire because Speed Ventures had an event as well, but the car is disassembled for the roll cage installation. I was also asked to pit crew for the WERKS2 GT3 Porsche but I was being a lazy a$$ and didn't want to drive down there...

Hope you had fun... Keep in touch and I'll let you know the next time I run in your neck of the woods !

 

Simon:

I've been flipping thru the manual and it appears that the ABS and ESP systems are tied together. The wheel sensors and lateral accelerometer affect both functions. So, by disconnecting, I run the chance of losing the ABS. You can understand why this is a problem.

 

Hmmm...I missed that, but I guess it makes sense. Do you actually use the ABS on the track? I find it hardly ever kicks in, even the other weekend in the rain. Perhaps I need to brake harder. Personally I don't like it as my gut instinct when you feel the wheels locking is to release the pedal - exactly what you shouldn't do with ABS!

 

It would appear that the traction control and ABS systems have been transferred from the SLK to the Crossfire intact. That being the case, turning off the ASP (?) [We call it ESP] will only turn off the traction controls, and allow wheel spin. The components that help prevent a spin out, and the limited slip differential simulator still operate as they designed them to. The LSD simulator kicks out at about 30 to 35 mph, but the "anti spin out" remains engaged at all times, tho' some people think it's dialed back quite a bit.
For track days "we" encourage people to leave the ESP turned on until they get comfortable with the track and the car. After a session or two they can turn it off if they want, to see and feel the difference.

 

After driving my BMW Z4 on the track and comparing that solution to the one on the SRT6, the MBZ solution is by far the most livable.

The BMW system is in two levels, full "mommy mode" and just "slap your hand a little". In full mode, the system literally shuts down everything when your driving gets spirited. When I tried running at CMS with it on, it would allow no momentum coming out of a hard turn. It was like driving through molasses. When I turn "off" the primary control but left the traction control on, I was able to get some momentum and actually improved my speed down the back straight by as much as 10 MPH (to 90). Turning off the second stage made the car very unstable and tail happy.

On the SRT6 going through the same corners with ESP engaged, I was given the opportunity to give it some power exiting that corner without the car bogging down. I was able to reach a speed 20 MPH (110 MPH) higher than my best time with the Z4 (1st level disengaged) and 30 MPH faster than with the Z4s with both levels engaged.

I truly believe that the MBZ system is far superior for the average driver. Maybe a full out racer could do better with the BMW system. Bottom line, the MBZ system is far more forgiving (and fun), especially for the novice.

 

I'm the "notorious late braker" it's the only way I can make-up some time with this little underpowered engine. It will engage a few times per event, usually coming into turn 1.

I guess I could live without it, but I would have to try it first. I'll keep you posted.

 

Good point for novice drivers. It's quite a hindrance for others though, it has added nearly two seconds to my times at "Big Willow" because of the way it functions by applying the brakes to compensate for the "slip". Turn 7-8 especially which are routinely driven in a controlled drift at speeds of 110+.

Heck, come to think of it nearly every turn will activate the function on that track and you can really feel the speed reduction. I'm old school and learned controlled slides through turns by feathering the throttle. Not to say I haven't gotten caught with my pants down on a few occasions.

 

There is no doubt that ESP will add some time to those that have an idea of what they are doing, it really wasn't designed for them. The idea was to keep folks that only "think" they know what they are doing from destroying themselves and their car. That's why ( I think) it's a good idea for newbies to leave it on for a while on the track, to make it a little easier to learn what's going on before the stuff hits the fan... . Works good at autocross as well, keeps people from spinning out and embarrassing themselves. It's an excellent learning tool that can be at least partially turned off when you want to "play".
At VIR the Hog Pen is a 90+ mph turn, it has to be to get to 150 or so before heavy braking at the Horseshoe (much of it is up hill). The back straight is similar between Oak Tree and the Rollercoaster, except that you start out at about 30 to 35 mph and the entry to the Roller Coaster is blind. You have to rely on the flagman to know what's over the hill (This one starts as a down hill run and half way through goes uphill). We normally run the full 3.27 mile course. You may have see the course on TV they run the American LeMans series as well as other series there. It's a VERY fast course.
Summit Point is a bit slower, but 130 on the main straight into the hairpin isn't uncommon, the carousel is fun, but you have to hit turn 11 at least 70 mph in order to get any speed on the straight... Great course, and close enough to have fun at.

http://www.virclub.com/vir/index.php...=23&Itemid=106

http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/

 

Nice to see someone on the forum who's track savvy. I think it's you, me and woody. Are you running a Crossfire ?

 

[QUOTE=Bruce R.]I run the Crossfire's Grand Daddy... SLK 32 . From what I gather at the Dodge site the '32 starts out about 100 lbs lighter then a Crossfire Coupe (mine was weighed and was 3,157# with 3/4 tank of gas), but with 20 more hp and about the same increase in torque (349 hp, 331#' torque). Mine is stock, and according to the dyno delivers 300 horsepower to the rear axle.